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Lessons Learnt?

N

Number 9

Well-Known Member
What have you learnt about City now that this season is at an end?

What lessons does Farke appear to have learnt from this season?
 
N

Number 9

Well-Known Member
I would like to see a defensive coach to bring on the defensive unit. I believe we can coach them to improve as a group and cut out silly mistakes.

I think that one thing would exponentially benefit the club because the attacking players wouldn't be busting a gut just for a silly goal or two to be conceded every game.
 
OldRobert

OldRobert

Well-Known Member
What have you learnt about City now that this season is at an end?

What lessons does Farke appear to have learnt from this season?
May seem like stating the obvious, but it soon became obvious that we weren't good enough in all departments even with the injuries, and were going to struggle. I thought that the comment from management at the beginning of the season about expected to finish 20th or words to that effect, was one of the worst bits of management speak I've ever heard.

I don't see much evidence of Farke learning very much at all. Obviously he sees training which we don't, but I don't understand why some players have played no matter what, and some haven't.

I would like to see a defensive coach to bring on the defensive unit. I believe we can coach them to improve as a group and cut out silly mistakes.

I think that one thing would exponentially benefit the club because the attacking players wouldn't be busting a gut just for a silly goal or two to be conceded every game.
I'm not sure that just a defensive coach is the answer to the defensive unit. The amount of goals conceded is appalling, and it's not just this season. Last season was pretty horrendous too. I doubt whether a defensive coach could sort that lot out. There is something very wrong in any team that concedes that many whether it be tactics and/or personnel, probably both.

Last season as you all know, we conceded a hatful, but we scored 2 hatfuls and got promoted. This season we couldn't score and we are where we are, and the consensus seems to be:" Oh we'll walk the championship"................maybe, maybe not.

Next season will be BCD certainly for some time, maybe all season..............how will the team cope with that?

Is Farke the right man anymore? Webber is due to leave in 2022..................not long, is his heart still in it?:confused:
 
morty

morty

Moderator
Staff member
I think that it is no longer feasible for a club with our structure to survive in the Premiership. Every time we come up the financial disparity has got bigger with every single year. I'm afraid that the dream of establishing ourselves while self funding, is slowly fading away.
 
OldRobert

OldRobert

Well-Known Member
Agree totally with your comment Morty. Many would disagree, but I think they are the sort who would not accept that tomorrow is Thursday. Question is what next, as presumably that puts the kibosh on 'The Project' as that surely is based on self funding.

Are we looking at the end of the current majority shareholders setup and ownership, or do we do away with any pretence of ambition, and look to hang on to being a mid table Championship side?
 
N

Number 9

Well-Known Member
I think that it is no longer feasible for a club with our structure to survive in the Premiership. Every time we come up the financial disparity has got bigger with every single year. I'm afraid that the dream of establishing ourselves while self funding, is slowly fading away.
That's a bit bleak Morty, I don't wholly agree.
My hunch is that we are trying to play a style which is a few years out of date.
Football evolves, Man City tried to play like Brazil but then comes along different tactics to deal with it, Jurgen pressing for instance.
We beat them by blocking up the midfield and pushing them out wide where they are less effective.
The slow patient passing game we have just plays into the hands of the professional efficient Premier League teams who press up, force mistakes, score at will and then sit back waiting for us to lose the ball again.
We need to be street wise, choosing when to play like Brazil, when to do a Burnley and then when to counterattack at speed like Leicester with Vardy.
Unfortunately, we all could see it early on but for whatever reason, Farke wasn't changing things, his response was work harder at what we're doing, when we should have adapted what we were doing depending on the opposition.

On two occasions Farke did change our style drastically and got positive results each time, against Man C and Everton away.
Why he didn't do so more often, who knows?
 
Fenway Frank

Fenway Frank

Well-Known Member
When I got into work today I said to my mate that Lewis was picking up Van Dyke at Liverpool in the first game of the season, and last night the same thing happened. That’s disappointing to see, and with the fact that we’ve struggled against set pieces all season I don’t know why personnel haven’t been put into different zones to try and help.
I like the way we play but we haven’t quite got the quality at the top level. I felt Pukki was a little better last night as when Vrancic has the ball he looks to pass forward more than some of the others.
 
N

Number 9

Well-Known Member
When I got into work today I said to my mate that Lewis was picking up Van Dyke at Liverpool in the first game of the season, and last night the same thing happened. That’s disappointing to see, and with the fact that we’ve struggled against set pieces all season I don’t know why personnel haven’t been put into different zones to try and help.
I like the way we play but we haven’t quite got the quality at the top level. I felt Pukki was a little better last night as when Vrancic has the ball he looks to pass forward more than some of the others.
Lewis didn't cover himself in glory marking Dawson. For the goal, Lewis turned his back on Dawson and was bending over making himself even smaller. Yes Tettey could have done better too as could a man on the post and possibly Krul punching the ball away before it reached the back post area, but most of the damage was done with Lewis being ineffectual against Dawson.
 
N

Number 9

Well-Known Member
It's not just set pieces, what on earth was McLean trying to do in midfield when the ball went through for the goal?
There's a big strong player attacking the ball at pace, surely McLean just takes him out, ball into Row z, picking up a yellow if needed.
McLean ends up on the ground, then jogging back watching Arrons incredible assist for sick note who hasn't scored fir two years.
 
morty

morty

Moderator
Staff member
Anyway, old Bo
That's a bit bleak Morty, I don't wholly agree.
My hunch is that we are trying to play a style which is a few years out of date.
Football evolves, Man City tried to play like Brazil but then comes along different tactics to deal with it, Jurgen pressing for instance.
We beat them by blocking up the midfield and pushing them out wide where they are less effective.
The slow patient passing game we have just plays into the hands of the professional efficient Premier League teams who press up, force mistakes, score at will and then sit back waiting for us to lose the ball again.
We need to be street wise, choosing when to play like Brazil, when to do a Burnley and then when to counterattack at speed like Leicester with Vardy.
Unfortunately, we all could see it early on but for whatever reason, Farke wasn't changing things, his response was work harder at what we're doing, when we should have adapted what we were doing depending on the opposition.

On two occasions Farke did change our style drastically and got positive results each time, against Man C and Everton away.
Why he didn't do so more often, who knows?
Let me expand further in a new post window, this may be long ( I was busy at work but have a bit more time now to answer a bit better)
 
morty

morty

Moderator
Staff member
Firstly, I have 100% confidence in Webber and Farke. They are the right people for the job, and they are getting the most out of what we have. But I will use a phrase that we use offshore a lot, you can only piss with the cock that you have.

Going back to my earlier point, it is harder and harder now to polish lower league turds. Look at the success rate we had last season of plucking players from nowhere and them working out, lets give it a pulled from nowhere figure for last season, and say that 60% of the players that we bought worked out, and compare it with our success rate for this season, which would be far, far lower. This is no one's fault, it is simply much, much harder to find a player from an obscure league, that no one has heard of, and make him a success in the Premier league. Coupled with the fact that we always shop in the bargain basement too, it makes it nigh on impossible.

I also believe Webber about the fact we got promoted a year too early as well, imagine the difference there would have been in our young players with another years experience under their belts, and also if you believe that Godfrey is worth 50 million, if we came up with that money to spend. The whole financial disparity hit home for me when we were playing Watford the other night and they have a player they bought for 30 million, something we can only dream of right now.

I don't think our defensive injury nightmare can be dismissed, dismissing overall quality (I'll come to that in a minute) I think a defensive unit massively benefits from playing together, and had we been able to name a more settled line up on a regular basis then it would have made a big difference. I think that had we been able to name a settled back 5, and Amadou had worked out ad CDM we would have been a lot more solid.

On zonal marking, it goes back to my earlier point about having to cut your cloth. We are not a physically large team, so the system is borne out of necessity, there is no point going man to man if they are all physically bigger than you. And again, this dovetails into what quality we can afford. Average Prem defender (figures just for representation) = 20 million. One that can defend really well = 30 million, one that has pace and is comfortable with the ball at his feet = 40 million. Where we got caught out too often on set pieces is the fact that our full backs are just not very tall, also we rely so much on them for attack that we got caught out on the transition from defence to attack way too often. This is something I struggle to explain, for me say Lewis bombs on, then the whole defence should shift slightly left, and the CDM should drop back, not entirely into the LB position, but with one eye on it. A certain amount of blame for this can be put on lack of experience, but for me, this is a bit of a football basic. I think Farke would like to have played more with 3 CB's but this option was rarely available to him.

I think we desperately missed a few experienced old heads, leaders. A Grant Holt to marshal and to encourage, and to shithouse when needed. We needed somebody dominant in midfield, it is kind of Mclean, but not quite, because basically, he isn't just quite good enough, not his fault.

It is a shame, but it was always going to be a ridiculous ask, and we had to be very lucky with all the pieces falling into place. The defensive crisis and Pukki's injury did for us, I don't think Pukki ever really recovered properly from his toe injury, and it wouldn't surprise me if it came out, after the season is done, that this was the case. I think once you lose that confidence that you are always able to score it really shows, and it manifested itself in the fact that so many of our games followed the pattern of start brightly, go a goal behind, fall to pieces.

For me, the whole Covid thing just ruined the season, I found that I just didn't care, and it felt like that there were far more important things than football, and you have to wonder how hard, mentally, it was for players to restart, while adrift at the bottom of the league.

We regroup, and we go again.
 
Fenway Frank

Fenway Frank

Well-Known Member
For me, the whole Covid thing just ruined the season,
Just wanted to add to this as before we stopped playing our form wasn’t actually that bad, beating Leicester and Spurs, Hanley playing well at the back. Playing behind closed doors seems to have effected the poorer teams the most too. Chances are we still would have gone down but I think it would have been a lot closer than this, just want Saturday over now so I can start planning away games for next season ( I hope )
 
N

Number 9

Well-Known Member
You've touched on lots of different things there, I personally hold Farke responsible for tactics and training.
You refer to defensive unit being organized and responding to game situations i.e. if Max goes up the pitch, the rest of the back four plus a cdm adjusts position to cover.
Farke has coached the team to respond differently.
Currently, Max and Jamal go up the pitch simultaneously when we have possession. The centre backs split out wide and Krul comes forward, often out of the area, and they play as a back three.
With Max and Jamal forward, often we have seen Emi and Onel back covering their positions too.
This is not ideal as they're burning energy up and down the pitch just covering the full backs.
Max and Jamal very rarely put crosses in from at or near the byline. The normal course is for them to cut inside around the 18 yard area and link up with the advanced midfielders.
This then becomes a very congested area with all those attacking players and most of the opposition team back by this time, resulting in the attack being blocked and a long ball kicked out of defence- suddenly we're all panicking chasing it back.

This approach to the game must have been coached by Farke because it happens every game, all game, even when personnel change.
 
N

Number 9

Well-Known Member
I believe our players have a lot of potential but they are being asked to play in a way which doesn't give them much chance in the modern premier league.
 
morty

morty

Moderator
Staff member
You've touched on lots of different things there, I personally hold Farke responsible for tactics and training.
You refer to defensive unit being organized and responding to game situations i.e. if Max goes up the pitch, the rest of the back four plus a cdm adjusts position to cover.
Farke has coached the team to respond differently.
Currently, Max and Jamal go up the pitch simultaneously when we have possession. The centre backs split out wide and Krul comes forward, often out of the area, and they play as a back three.
With Max and Jamal forward, often we have seen Emi and Onel back covering their positions too.
This is not ideal as they're burning energy up and down the pitch just covering the full backs.
Max and Jamal very rarely put crosses in from at or near the byline. The normal course is for them to cut inside around the 18 yard area and link up with the advanced midfielders.
This then becomes a very congested area with all those attacking players and most of the opposition team back by this time, resulting in the attack being blocked and a long ball kicked out of defence- suddenly we're all panicking chasing it back.

This approach to the game must have been coached by Farke because it happens every game, all game, even when personnel change.
It is a very odd thing, I can't put my finger on either why they are playing this way, or why they continue to try and make it work. For me, you should only have one full back attacking at one time. You could maybe excuse it if we were making up for a very narrow playing midfield perhaps, but our midfield players do get wide. To some respect attacking fullbacks can make up for the fact that you have little pace from your wide players, but then you would expect to see that change when we have Onel playing. I am not pinning it all, tactically, on Farke, but I do think we are basically firefighting a lot of the time, making up for too many deficiencies in too many players. To make this work we basically have to have every single player playing at 100%, every single game. And that is just not possible frankly, the quality and experience just isn't there.

Really we have limited players, which gives limited options to Farke, which all adds up to us being a bit of a one trick pony, and too predictable.
 
morty

morty

Moderator
Staff member
I believe our players have a lot of potential but they are being asked to play in a way which doesn't give them much chance in the modern premier league.
Young and inexperienced players need old heads and quality around them, and we just don't have that.
 
N

Number 9

Well-Known Member
I blamed Hughton for playing inverted wingers, left footed players on the right etc, because they would stop the forward movement to come inside and get on their best foot.
This allowed time for the oppo to get back and defend, the inside area was suddenly flooded with bodies and we couldn't find a way through.
We currently are managing to do that same thing even with our wingers on there favourite sides.
It must be instructions from the manager, there's no way they would be allowed to do this every game if the manager had told them to mix it up and spend more time getting crosses in from the byline.
 
N

Number 9

Well-Known Member
why they continue to try and make it work
That's the worrying thing about Farke.
He tends to take things as criticism and his reaction is in two parts :-

1) He makes negative remarks about the person who questioned his tactics.

This has happened to supporters, players and reporters.

2) He persists stubbornly in whatever he was criticised for doing. His phrase being "we must try harder / better" to try to make those things work.
Unfortunately this has the consequence of implying that the tactics are fine but the players are not good enough, something he's mentioned several times, leaving the players feeling low in confidence and lacking belief in the manager.
It also alienates those ones who he has made negative comments about, things like they are only supporters and don't know what is happening in the game.

It's like Emperor's new clothes, everyone can see it's not right but he's going to chop off your head if you point out his tiny penis.
 
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