Norwich City v Liverpool(home) Saturday 23rd January

[Killiecanary]

Heard it described as 'schoolboy' defending....certainly reminded me of playground 'first to 5' games

 

[Killiecanary]

@Din

re 4 -I really don't see what Rudd could have done.  That defence gives him no protection at all, and he really didn't have any chance with anything today.  And when our CB plays the best through ball of the day to let Henderson 1-1 in goal, not sure what any keeper could have done.  I get that the shots to goals ratio is too high, but that isn't because he isn't stopping them but more because we are giving teams gift-wrapped chances that they really can't miss. 

 

[Canaryboy]

I felt bad for him because his limited ability isn't really his fault, if he's not good enough then he shouldn't be selected, but nevertheless he is a really nice guy and a great pro who has done a lot of good over the course of his career here. But surely this is the nail in his coffin? The fact is he isn't good enough and he shouldn't be playing, and choosing him ahead of Bennett today was completely the wrong call from Alex Neil. It would amaze me if Klose doesn't replace him in the side against Tottenham.

I also feel a bit sorry for him because he has been a crucial part of this clubs progression and was genuinely good enough as a right back back in the day, but that day has gone and whilst he is being scapegoated to a degree I'm afraid the fans are just spot on with this one.

What coffin are we talking about though, his time on the pitch or his time at the club? Because we handed him a 3 year deal at the end of last season, and that one is on Alex Neil surely as he'd presumably get to give the yay or nay. Are we going to be able to find a buyer willing to take over his wages?

I'm not sure what we were doing handing a 3 year deal to a player who had decided at some stage down the road he wasn't a right back, and had yet to prove himself capable as a centre back in the Premier League, because for me the day that he decided to turn into a centre back was the day I thought we'd be leaving him behind, There is actually a post from me on this forum somewhere from early last season in which I say just that, that as a centre back he's destined for a career in the Championship or lower, and yet we handed him a 3 year contract in April whilst in a promotion battle.

Where is the room for him? I just don't understand why he got that contract. When Whittaker is released and Wisdom goes home I guess he is our backup right back, but he's said himself that he considers himself a centre back now, so its all a bit of a shambles isn't it, as he's likely on a wage that teams in the Championship won't be prepared to take on and as a bloke in his 30's with a family he's hardly going to write off a huge amount of money.

The only way that this is the last we see of Martin is if we are going to pay him not to play for the next two and a half years! 

 

[Din]

@Din

re 4 -I really don't see what Rudd could have done.  That defence gives him no protection at all, and he really didn't have any chance with anything today.  And when our CB plays the best through ball of the day to let Henderson 1-1 in goal, not sure what any keeper could have done.  I get that the shots to goals ratio is too high, but that isn't because he isn't stopping them but more because we are giving teams gift-wrapped chances that they really can't miss. 

I agree there's not a lot more Rudd could've done, and the defenders don't give him any protection and as a result he conceded 5 today. However that's often the difference between goalkeepers, how often they make saves you don't expect them to make. Whilst Rudd has made a number of good saves since he's been in the team I can't remember an 'exceptional' save that he's made. Whereas Ruddy, when at his best was capable of making them.

I also feel a bit sorry for him because he has been a crucial part of this clubs progression and was genuinely good enough as a right back back in the day, but that day has gone and whilst he is being scapegoated to a degree I'm afraid the fans are just spot on with this one.

What coffin are we talking about though, his time on the pitch or his time at the club? Because we handed him a 3 year deal at the end of last season, and that one is on Alex Neil surely as he'd presumably get to give the yay or nay. Are we going to be able to find a buyer willing to take over his wages?

I'm not sure what we were doing handing a 3 year deal to a player who had decided at some stage down the road he wasn't a right back, and had yet to prove himself capable as a centre back in the Premier League, because for me the day that he decided to turn into a centre back was the day I thought we'd be leaving him behind, There is actually a post from me on this forum somewhere from early last season in which I say just that, that as a centre back he's destined for a career in the Championship or lower, and yet we handed him a 3 year contract in April whilst in a promotion battle.

Where is the room for him? I just don't understand why he got that contract. When Whittaker is released and Wisdom goes home I guess he is our backup right back, but he's said himself that he considers himself a centre back now, so its all a bit of a shambles isn't it, as he's likely on a wage that teams in the Championship won't be prepared to take on and as a bloke in his 30's with a family he's hardly going to write off a huge amount of money.

The only way that this is the last we see of Martin is if we are going to pay him not to play for the next two and a half years! 

I was referring to his play time. If he does leave I imagine it'll be at the end of next season if we're still in the Premier League. With Bassong though clearly Neil's first choice centre back (think I'm right in saying he's started every league game so far) and Klose now bought in presumably to play alongside him, it would surprise me if Martin got another chance. I'd keep him as back-up as clearly he's a big character in the dressing room and is decent enough back-up, but unfortunately I think while we're in the Premier League he should be nowhere near the starting line-up.

 

[GJP]

it would surprise me if Martin got another chance. 

Would it?

Look at the Newcastle game. He was woeful in that but AN took the easy option of putting him to right back for the next game - where he was, again, woeful. He was then put into the centre of the back 3. And only lost his place because he got suspended, there's never been any suggestions AN will drop Martin due to poor performance.

And today he could have played Klose but he didn't. He came out with some nonsense about Martin being suited to dealing with Firmino (lol) and obviously the suggestion that Klose isn't ready - which is a load of rubbish when you consider we let in 5 today and 3 in each of the last 3 games.

 

[SteEFC]

Unlucky today folks, I was bouncing off the friggin' walls when Naisy scored, I knew he would. I was delerious when Wes put the penalty in, shame you couldn't hold out but, as an Evertonian, I Should be used to seeing leads slipping out of a teams grasp.  Ah well, take heart from an otherwise great performance from yourselves. 

 

[GJP]

Unlucky today folks, I was bouncing off the friggin' walls when Naisy scored, I knew he would. I was delerious when Wes put the penalty in, shame you couldn't hold out but, as an Evertonian, I Should be used to seeing leads slipping out of a teams grasp.  Ah well, take heart from an otherwise great performance from yourselves. 

Nice of you to say but there's nothing unlucky about letting 5 goals in at home.

 

[Din]

For anyone who needs cheering up Grabban missed a sitter in Bournemouth's game earlier.

 

[splutcho]

For those of you feeling bad, I went to work today with us 3-1 up and just watched MOTD. 

 

[GJP]

Well at least you got to see Bassong's goal...

 

[Din]

Would it?

Look at the Newcastle game. He was woeful in that but AN took the easy option of putting him to right back for the next game - where he was, again, woeful. He was then put into the centre of the back 3. And only lost his place because he got suspended, there's never been any suggestions AN will drop Martin due to poor performance.

And today he could have played Klose but he didn't. He came out with some nonsense about Martin being suited to dealing with Firmino (lol) and obviously the suggestion that Klose isn't ready - which is a load of rubbish when you consider we let in 5 today and 3 in each of the last 3 games.

Newcastle was different though as Martin was one of many poor performers. Plus Klose and Pinto have been bought in signifying that Neil probably knows Martin isn't good enough. As Klose couldn't play today though Neil had to choose between Martin and Bennett, and he got that choice badly wrong.

Klose will undoubtedly come in and partner Bassong against Spurs. If they work well together then I don't doubt they'll remain our partnership for as long they continue to work well together.

 

[GJP]

Newcastle was different though as Martin was one of many poor performers.

Klose couldn't play today

Martin was one of many poor performers at Bournemouth last week.

Klose could play. AN decided not to play him.

 

[-Matt-]

With Martin at CB...28 conceded in 15 games. 2.33 a game. 

Without... 15 in 8.   1.875 a game. 

I think those figures are right. Not pretty. 

League games only. 

 

[Gaffer]

I don't understand the calls to drop Rudd for the guy who conceded 6 at Newcastle. People seem to be forgetting his man of the match performances when he came in. We can't expect him to save the day in every match though, particularly when our defenders are giving the ball away for fun. What can any keeper do about a short back pass from the half way line that leaves him one on one?

As for Martin, his performance brings back memories of Bassong when we lost 7-1 to Man City. He dragged the whole team down and isn't fit to be in the team let alone captaining it.

 

[ZLF]

Rudd and ruddy both good keepers exposed by poor defenders.  Said when ruddy dropped that Rudd would suffer too,  the back four inspire confidence in no one, esp the manager.  

Rudd over exposed for far too many games and was never going to continue to make so many saves.   The issue is unchanged,  poor defenders have to go.  Perhaps we will seek another cb and hopefully a left back this week. Probably not, so we have to build stability aroiund

RB. Pinto. Better pace, although some def worries yest, hope improve with time

CB Bassong.  Happy to replace him but simply  better than the current options,  Bennett immobility and inability to concentrate or read a gain overlooked .  so ineffective v Bournemouth highlights his weaknesses

CB Klose

LB Brady.  Far from perfect and another buy needed.  But olsson was left back yesterday. Couldn't be arsed to defend the 95th min,  Brady slated for taking responsibility covering his arse. Made a fist of it yes.  Still miles ahead of olsson 

Also impossible to underestimate just how little leadership and responsibility there was from howson and dorrans in that second half,  no tracking, no covering too much static hands on hips watching. Simply unacceptable and droppable on its own.  Never seen osmosis in defensive midfield,  Liverpool went straight through them.

9 days key defensive coaching to save a season

 

[SussexYellow]

Din, sums it up brilliantly, was not all bad today!  

You are quite right Mark it was not all bad, in fact some of it was very good. But the bad more than offset it. 

I sat stunned in my seat at the end of the game. I don't think I have ever been so disappointed. Well I probably have but this one is right up there! Not just because of the mix of emotions in stoppage time, but more because of the failure to close down the game at 3-1 when getting the 4th goal should have been the deciding moment of the game.

 

[Dubai Mark]

Sussex, it was bad enough watching it here, god knows what state I would have been in had I been at Carrow Road! Agree with you, it was our failure to close down the game at 3-1 that was the big problem, and for me just how sloppy and disorganised we suddenly became, I ended the game almost in a state of shock! 

 

[GJP]

AN didn't react quick enough (or at all). Granted Liverpool's 2nd went in far too soon after our 3rd but it was obvious we needed to tighten up/shore up and he didn't get it done.

 

[RhythmicTheory]

AN didn't react quick enough (or at all). Granted Liverpool's 2nd went in far too soon after our 3rd but it was obvious we needed to tighten up/shore up and he didn't get it done.

I didnt catch the game so its difficult for me to comment, but looking at the bench, subs made and goal times, your only really talking about bringing on mulumbu, who hasnt exactly looked up to speed when I've seen him play.  Given the headless chickens the centre midfield and entire defence became (going by the highlights ive seen),I dont see what else could have been done.  I also think you are overly harsh on Rudd.

We lost both our main defensive midfielders pre match, mulumbu doesnt look up to match speed when ive seen him play, in spite of that with 25 mins to go we are 3-1 up.  A manager and goalkeeper cant account for half the team switching off.

All we have learned is you have to play at least one of either Tettey or O'Neil, because there isnt the concentration among any of our defenders (midfield and back four).  Our famed team spirit, its a paradox, we are just as likely to crumble under a bit of pressure as we are to stage a fight back, but this group are mentally weak on the whole.  There are poor performers thoughout, but Russel martin, Newcastle, Everton first half and yesterday, if he doesnt have some sort of screen, goes to pieces.

We really have to consider switching to three at the back with wing backs, much like Southampton did when they couldnt stop shipping goals, needs someone vocal in the middle though, hopefully thats Klose, 3-5-2.   Ironically if we did that I would also bring back Ruddy, Rudd is not to blame for the above but hes a shot stopper, Ruddy is the better at dealing with crosses.

 

[Canaryboy]

The point is that neither Tettey or O'Neil were available, so the logical alternative would have been Mulumbu.

He had a great game against Man City in October and has only started one league game since.