In or Out?

[Yellow Fever]

I can't see that "our team has no heart or spirit", Morty. IMO the players got carried away after the first goal and over committed. That wasn't Adams' fault, but it also doesn't reflect a loss of spirit. Views will vary on this, though. If the performances had been consistently bad and Adams had lost the dressing room then replacing him would be logical. It was a pity that Royle pulled out at the 11th hour, and the management team is a good one, IMO, but an older head taking an overview of the situation could well make a difference. Nigel Worthington has been mentioned and there are others who would fit the role. On the bright side, Howson is getting back to his best form and we now have a run of games that should yield a decent number of points starting with Brighton and Reading at home. Hopefully we'll get Ryan Bennett, Wes and Odjidja-Ofoe back after that to provide more defensive and midfield options.

 

[morty]

I can't see that "our team has no heart or spirit", Morty. IMO the players got carried away after the first goal and over committed. That wasn't Adams' fault, but it also doesn't reflect a loss of spirit. Views will vary on this, though. If the performances had been consistently bad and Adams had lost the dressing room then replacing him would be logical. It was a pity that Royle pulled out at the 11th hour, and the management team is a good one, IMO, but an older head taking an overview of the situation could well make a difference. Nigel Worthington has been mentioned and there are others who would fit the role. On the bright side, Howson is getting back to his best form and we now have a run of games that should yield a decent number of points starting with Brighton and Reading at home. Hopefully we'll get Ryan Bennett, Wes and Odjidja-Ofoe back after that to provide more defensive and midfield options.

I guess we saw a different game on Saturday.

I saw a team that almost accepted Forest scoring as inevitable. A fragility, that as the game went on, they didn't have the belief that we would actually win. A doubt crept in, and Adams stood by and just watched it unfold.

 

[Andy]

I guess we saw a different game on Saturday.

I saw a team that almost accepted Forest scoring as inevitable. A fragility, that as the game went on, they didn't have the belief that we would actually win. A doubt crept in, and Adams stood by and just watched it unfold.

To be honest, I felt the same. As soon as Forest scored I knew they'd win, if there'd been a sofa at the ground I would have hid behind it.

 

[eatonparkboy]

Ditto. There was nothing coming from our dug out to suggest we were going to approach much of the second half with anything other than hope. I'm sorry YF but I don't think we overcommitted. In fact first half I believe we were controlled and measured in our passing and approach.

But the lad Osbourne and then Lansbury shifted the balance in midfield and were able to play the game in our half rather than from deep in their own. I do accept that Forest's goals came from a big kick and our corner. But I don't think we over committed at that corner. We just did what you should do and pack the last third and box knowing that Forest would bring nearly everyone back but were sloppy when they cleared.

And I have put on a different thread that Russ Martin is not  a good skipper IMO and we needed someone on the pitch to lead as there was nothing coming from the dugout. It was arms folded Hughton style once again.

 

[Dandy Mountfarto]

Don't take this as a defence of Adams in particular, because its not really meant to be all that related, but I still don't think we as a club have sorted out the neccessary structure to make changing managers in general not a massive upheaval.

If we want to be successful long term we need to get that sorted, even if it takes a few seasons, more than we need yet another manager coming in to overhaul everything again.

Southampton and Swansea for example are able to change managers regularly and lose large chunks of their squad and continue onwards because they have a proper structure in place with regards to playing style, scouting, youth, coaching, as well as general football logistics presumably.

We, and many other clubs on other hand, seem to be a bit of a shambles in that regard. Its becoming more and more apparent that our rise under Lambert, particularly the way we did it in terms of playing style and the kind of players we were buying, was Lambert's vision rather than any sort of club wide philosophy - it all went out the window for new ideas once Hughton came in.

 

[eatonparkboy]

Don't take this as a defence of Adams in particular, because its not really meant to be all that related, but I still don't think we as a club have sorted out the neccessary structure to make changing managers in general not a massive upheaval.

If we want to be successful long term we need to get that sorted, even if it takes a few seasons, more than we need yet another manager coming in to overhaul everything again.

Southampton and Swansea for example are able to change managers regularly and lose large chunks of their squad and continue onwards because they have a proper structure in place with regards to playing style, scouting, youth, coaching, as well as general football logistics presumably.

We, and many other clubs on other hand, seem to be a bit of a shambles in that regard. Its becoming more and more apparent that our rise under Lambert, particularly the way we did it in terms of playing style and the kind of players we were buying, was Lambert's vision rather than any sort of club wide philosophy - it all went out the window for new ideas once Hughton came in.

I think you are right. I don't really know too much about Swansea but Saints have always produced talented players who they have sold on. The last tranche perhaps not quite as good as Bale, Walcott and Chamberlain.

I do know that they have always given their youth a chance in the first team whereas apart from Lambert in L1, we just don't want to give them a run of any length. I have disagreed with members on here about stamina with younger players but cannot see why, if they are good enough, they can't at least start most games. Murphy gets one then he's out. Loza on the bench then not. And this from a manager who coached the youth! Very shambolic as far as I can see.

 

[splutcho]

Who says they're good enough though?

 

[Yellowfuture]

Morty

"I'm sorry but if our team has no heart or spirit, its one man's job to rectify that."

I share your concerns about player attitude, but to be honest, for whatever reason, we have seen this sort of failure away from home under all the managers I can remember.

Should we be judging the future of our manager on 10 mins of footy away from home?

My initial reaction was enough is enough, but now my thoughts are more about the fact we have a manager who is learning the job.

Having appointed him, good or bad, he has to be allowed to make mistakes,or there was no point in giving him the job.

I'll give him till the end of the month.

 

[eatonparkboy]

Who says they're good enough though?

Until we play them for a period of time we will never know. And to be fair, NA is under pressure already and we are openly talking of his replacement, so he really dare not put his trust in his younger talent at this stage. And we are just outside of the playoffs which if I remember, at the start of the season, was the consensus of where we should be for him to keep his job.

I would not be unhappy if we stayed in this division another season if we were redeveloping the squad and the basis for the next five years. And at the moment, apart from the strikers, this is the same bunch that along with the manager, got us relegated last year. Murphy knows he is going to be the first ousted so he won't try anything different when he comes on the pitch. And the same would apply to the others. And that fear factor epitomises modern football to me. Instant success or the pressure starts.

To be honest, if I didn't have this innate love for NCFC, I don't think I would bother much at all with football. It isn't the game I want anymore. 

 

[morty]

Morty

"I'm sorry but if our team has no heart or spirit, its one man's job to rectify that."

I share your concerns about player attitude, but to be honest, for whatever reason, we have seen this sort of failure away from home under all the managers I can remember.

Should we be judging the future of our manager on 10 mins of footy away from home?

My initial reaction was enough is enough, but now my thoughts are more about the fact we have a manager who is learning the job.

Having appointed him, good or bad, he has to be allowed to make mistakes,or there was no point in giving him the job.

I'll give him till the end of the month.

I hear what you are saying, but the salient point here is that we don't have time, or we at least only have a finite amount.

If we don't get up this season, it will be ten times harder next season. What I saw in the second half didn't instill me with confidence that Neil is progressing quick enough for our needs.

I think its obvious that the club are going to back him, and see a new coach as the answer.

I hope they're right.

And re attitude and spirit, yes I know we have never been worldbeaters away from home, but Saturday was an extremely winnable game. All I want from the players, and the staff, is their best effort within their capabilities. And I'm not sure I saw that.

 

[splutcho]

Until we play them for a period of time we will never know. 

If he's seeing them train everyday and thinks they're not good enough for the first team, then they're probably not good enough. Youth for youth's sake would be stupid in this situation.

 

[Bethnal Yellow and Green]

Talk about fickle, for most on here Adams was the best thing since sliced bread 7 games ago.

Having a bad spell but still very early to be calling for people's heads. Need to see some improvement soon, but sacking now would be a mistake.

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

Was lying in bed last night trying to sleep (odd concept I know). Found myself wondering what I would do if I were Adams, or at least if I had his job. Found myself dividing this solution into two halves - what I would have done at the start of Adams' tenure and what I would do now.

Personally I would have started the season like this

------------------Ruddy

E Bennett Turner Bassong Olsson

Redmond VOO Johnson Pilkington

----------Hooper  Lafferty

My reasoning being that we would have expected to dominate possession/teams, meaning we would need two pacey full-backs capable of contributing to the attack, but quick enough to get back should we get caught with our pants down - step up E Bennett. Cafu is capable here of course, but doesnt have the pace of Bennett, and really we want to be penning teams in. The Bassong thing is difficult, but Bassong has played for the U21s when asked and is contractually obliged. If he refuses to play he is in breach of contract and that is a different kettle of fish. So I personally would have insisted Bassong play and dealt with the consequences. Our defence is unbalanced without him playing on that left side, Turner is poorer for it. Hooiveld doesnt have Bassongs pace.

Bassong is easily good enough for this level and easily Premiership standard when he applies himself. I think Adams made a huge mistake exiling him, or making an example out of him in the wrong way.

I would never have sold Pilkington. Yes injuries were a problem, but on his day our best player, and genuinely two-footed. Instead we sold his flair and were left with no left winger. I would have played Redmond on the right and told him to skin every fullback like his life (or at least his place) depended on it.

VOO and BJ in the absence of Howson providing the power in the middle.

Hooper, proven at this level and shown to work best off a target man to play along Lafferty - backed from the start to replace what we lost in Grant Holt, not shoved on the wing.

Now though, as Adams has made decisions and certain players have good and bad form, my solution would be very different

-----------Ruddy

Martin Turner Hooiveld Garrido

Redmond VOO BJ Olsson

-----------Howson

----------Jerome

It surprised me just how different my line-ups (and formation were) just a few months down the season

 

[eatonparkboy]

If he's seeing them train everyday and thinks they're not good enough for the first team, then they're probably not good enough. Youth for youth's sake would be stupid in this situation.

I agree but they have entered into full contracts after their spell with him in the U18's. So if they are not good enough at this stage then that is his fault for not coaching them sufficiently. He obviously thought they were good enough.

How many come off the production line nowadays? The last regular was who? Chris Martin and we are looking to regret that.

I am not advocating throwing them all in just for the sake of it but I am advocating ignoring "this situation" and trying to develop something.

 

[Yellow Fever]

Talk about fickle, for most on here Adams was the best thing since sliced bread 7 games ago.

Having a bad spell but still very early to be calling for people's heads. Need to see some improvement soon, but sacking now would be a mistake.

I agree with this. Comparisons with Lambert have been made, but the fact is that City have exactly the same number of points they had under Lambert after 15 games in the Championship. The next 3 games were all draws. Lambert also made mistakes, like 3 at the back against Doncaster when we ended up being trounced 3-1 by a poor team. The problem for Adams is that he had an excellent start (Wolves aside) and then has hit a sticky patch, rather than results being spread out more evenly. The assumption that many are making is that the start was a 'fluke' and that the sticky patch will go on forever. It wasn't and it won't. Football isn't that predictable. We have three home games in the next four, starting with Brighton. That is Adams' chance to turn things around.

 

[morty]

I agree with this. Comparisons with Lambert have been made, but the fact is that City have exactly the same number of points they had under Lambert after 15 games in the Championship. The next 3 games were all draws. Lambert also made mistakes, like 3 at the back against Doncaster when we ended up being trounced 3-1 by a poor team. The problem for Adams is that he had an excellent start (Wolves aside) and then has hit a sticky patch, rather than results being spread out more evenly. The assumption that many are making is that the start was a 'fluke' and that the sticky patch will go on forever. It wasn't and it won't. Football isn't that predictable. We have three home games in the next four, starting with Brighton. That is Adams' chance to turn things around.

They are two totally different scenarios though. With Lambert our success was perhaps unexpected, and I think that, considering what had happened previously, most people considered we would be in the Championship a few seasons. So peoples expectations were somewhat lower.

We find ourselves now in a considerably better financial position, pockets bulging with parachute payments, and quite rightly setting our expectations higher. We were top of the league a few weeks ago, and now we're tenth. Sorry, this is looking less like a blip to me, and more like a worrying, downward trend. We look incredibly fragile. 

 

[Canaryboy]

Personally I would have started the season like this

------------------Ruddy

E Bennett Turner Bassong Olsson

Redmond VOO Johnson Pilkington

----------Hooper  Lafferty

Don't want to be that annoying pedantic guy, but I'm going to be that annoying pedantic guy anyway.... we didn't actually have VOO until the very end of August, about 6 games into the season, because we signed him after Fer had completed his move to QPR.

And I think Hooper was actually, in Adams' mind, his number one striker going into this season. He even said that Hooper was his "main man" in pre-season. Unfortunately Hooper picked up an injury just before the season started.

As for Pilkington. I'm not necessarily saying that the club should have kept hold of him, but I'm really confused about our left wing situation. We allowed Snodgrass, Pilkington and Surman (OK so he's better in a  central role, but can play out wide) to leave the club, and now Bennett has gone out on loan. We haven't signed a single conventional / orthodox winger, yet have too many centre midfielders, too many central defenders, and some may argue one too many strikers.

I'm actually just confused that our manager, a former winger, has devised a system which doesn't use any wingers at all. Redmond on the bench last time out, leaving us with no wingers on the pitch? Are there any other teams in this league who don't play any wingers?

I don't understand the thought process behind his thinking here, and presumably this was all discussed with and approved by the 'football board'?

"Guys, I need 6 centre defenders and 5 forwards this season, but don't worry about the budget as I'm going to sell all of our wingers".

What is the point in the football board again? We seem to have made some pretty bad decisions since it was created, is it the football board who have voted to get rid of Robson, to deflect attention away from themselves?

 

[eatonparkboy]

My educated guess is that a director of football is coming in to sort things out for NA. I think he has lost games, lost track and now losing the middle ground who would like to be happy with him.  And I think and hope this time it won't be an ex Canary but a complete outsider who will evaluate without any prior.

 

[Canaryboy]

My educated guess is that a director of football is coming in to sort things out for NA. I think he has lost games, lost track and now losing the middle ground who would like to be happy with him.  And I think and hope this time it won't be an ex Canary but a complete outsider who will evaluate without any prior.

I'm really hoping for an experienced former Premier League manager to work alongside him, somebody like Alan Curbishley, David O'Leary, Kevin Keegan, Trevor Francis or Gerard Houillier.

Joe Royle must have been here for a reason, why didn't we replace him when he left?

 

[eatonparkboy]

I'm really hoping for an experienced former Premier League manager to work alongside him, somebody like Alan Curbishley, David O'Leary, Kevin Keegan, Trevor Francis or Gerard Houillier.

Joe Royle must have been here for a reason, why didn't we replace him when he left?

There certainly are some good names amongst those. I would add George Graham to the list.