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Norwich City vs Brighton (Away) Saturday 2nd November.

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morty

morty

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Cheers Morty, nice to read a fair report without all the meltdown you get on the pinkun. As for Byram, someone on a forum suggested he may be able to play centre half and it escalated from there. If he was good enough to do it he would have played there by now. I don’t think we’re far off Hanley, and possibly Zimbo coming back into the side, probably after the next international break

I felt sorry for Farke yesterday, these injuries have tactically hamstrung him, all he could do to try and change the game yesterday was throw every striker on, which is a desperate tactic that pretty much never works anyway.

Just one more fit centre back would give us the option, away from home, of playing Amadou and Tettey as two DM's and at least give us the option of grinding out a point. Vrancic being fit gives us a different option in midfield, because we know Pukki is good enough to score the goals, he isn't the problem.

We are too easy to defend against, and we desperately need options off the bench to make us a bit more unpredictable.
 
OldRobert

OldRobert

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I do agree that we have absolutely nothing off the bench atm to change the game, DF coudn't be more hamstrung if he was physically tied up. I do feel that we may have misjudged the gap between Chumps and PL, even without injuries.
 
morty

morty

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I do agree that we have absolutely nothing off the bench atm to change the game, DF coudn't be more hamstrung if he was physically tied up. I do feel that we may have misjudged the gap between Chumps and PL, even without injuries.
I disagree. I was fairly happy with the squad we theoretically had at the start of the season.

We started the season with the required 4 centre backs, two with injury niggles, but not considered long term. Hanley's groin turned out to be complicated, we lost Klose for the whole season at a meaningless cup game, and then Zimbo at West Ham. We also addressed the DM issue by bringing in Amadou, which also gave a nod to centre back issues. We really have been dreadfully unlucky.
 
N

Number 9

Well-Known Member
I disagree. I was fairly happy with the squad we theoretically had at the start of the season.

We started the season with the required 4 centre backs, two with injury niggles, but not considered long term. Hanley's groin turned out to be complicated, we lost Klose for the whole season at a meaningless cup game, and then Zimbo at West Ham. We also addressed the DM issue by bringing in Amadou, which also gave a nod to centre back issues. We really have been dreadfully unlucky.
No, I disagree.
We shipped goals last season in the chumps, yet didn't upgrade our defence.
We bought one dm but didn't play him until we needed a body in the back four.
I seem to recall that we managed to accumulate several u18 attacking midfielders though.
Its not a surprise that we're shipping goals really, is it.
And obviously you cant always score lots of goals in the Premier League, unless you're playing Norwich that is.
 
morty

morty

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No, I disagree.
We shipped goals last season in the chumps, yet didn't upgrade our defence.
We bought one dm but didn't play him until we needed a body in the back four.
I seem to recall that we managed to accumulate several u18 attacking midfielders though.
Its not a surprise that we're shipping goals really, is it.
And obviously you cant always score lots of goals in the Premier League, unless you're playing Norwich that is.
What would have been your solution then? Bearing in mind all players are under contract, and as far as I know none wanted to leave?

Our CB pairing would have been two from the three of Godfrey, Zimmerman and Klose. Klose has Prem experience and would have been fine. Zimmerman we have no idea about but I think would have coped, and Ben has done okay so far, under the circumstances. That leaves Hanley, clearly the weakest, but thats how squads work.

So would the option have been to get rid of Hanley (assuming he wanted to go that is) and get in a better CB, but basically tell him he is 4th choice?
 
N

Number 9

Well-Known Member
Also, I'll get it off my chest, tactics!

We had many injuries etc playing against Man City yet we won, why?

Because our tactics changed, we congested the middle of the pitch and just gave them space down the wings, countered with pace.

Teams are doing this with Man City, some lose, some draw, some win, we got a win.

Is it that our tactics need a little more pragmatism?

Sheff Utd for goodness sake
 
N

Number 9

Well-Known Member
What would have been your solution then? Bearing in mind all players are under contract, and as far as I know none wanted to leave?

Our CB pairing would have been two from the three of Godfrey, Zimmerman and Klose. Klose has Prem experience and would have been fine. Zimmerman we have no idea about but I think would have coped, and Ben has done okay so far, under the circumstances. That leaves Hanley, clearly the weakest, but thats how squads work.

So would the option have been to get rid of Hanley (assuming he wanted to go that is) and get in a better CB, but basically tell him he is 4th choice?

Did we have to get rid of Hanley to get someone in? I don't know Morty, but its been an issue for past few seasons whilst we kept buying midfielders. Weve got plenty of them to go round.

Perhaps the answer lies in that we were promoted earlier than the management expected, they hadn't built a team for the next level.
 
morty

morty

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Did we have to get rid of Hanley to get someone in? I don't know Morty, but its been an issue for past few seasons whilst we kept buying midfielders. Weve got plenty of them to go round.

Perhaps the answer lies in that we were promoted earlier than the management expected, they hadn't built a team for the next level.
I don't think any club can really run with more than 4 centre backs, it really just isn't sustainable.

Yeah I think we did get promoted quicker than expected!
 
morty

morty

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Also, I'll get it off my chest, tactics!

We had many injuries etc playing against Man City yet we won, why?

Because our tactics changed, we congested the middle of the pitch and just gave them space down the wings, countered with pace.

Teams are doing this with Man City, some lose, some draw, some win, we got a win.

Is it that our tactics need a little more pragmatism?

Sheff Utd for goodness sake
Trouble is that beating Man City well and truly put us on the radar and made clubs sit up and take notice, you could see yesterday subtle things that Brighton did that were specifically about stifling the way we play. Plus there is a marked difference between home and away.

Re Sheff Utd, they haven't had the injuries we had, and I can't verify this totally, but I think they spent a few more quid than we did.
 
N

Number 9

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Trouble is that beating Man City well and truly put us on the radar and made clubs sit up and take notice, you could see yesterday subtle things that Brighton did that were specifically about stifling the way we play. Plus there is a marked difference between home and away.

Re Sheff Utd, they haven't had the injuries we had, and I can't verify this totally, but I think they spent a few more quid than we did.

So we can see experienced Premier League clubs, week after week, adjusting their tactics to get the best possible result from a given game. Can we honestly say that Farke does this, Man City game apart?
 
morty

morty

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So we can see experienced Premier League clubs, week after week, adjusting their tactics to get the best possible result from a given game. Can we honestly say that Farke does this, Man City game apart?
I don't think he has been able to. We don't have the fit defenders to go and park buses anywhere. And we're not an experienced Premier league club really, are we?
 
OldRobert

OldRobert

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Interesting above.
Yes we did have 4 CBs at season's start, but Klose has had so many injuries, odds on he was going to get another one, maybe not a season long one, but could never be relied on. How many games did he play last season? Godfrey fine, Zimmer more than a bit unfortunate, one can only hope he'll be as good in the PL as we hope. Hanley, one of the nigglely injuries, who DF would only play if no-one else was alive. In fact I seem to remember he was going to Blackburn I think it was. Tbf to say we had 4 CBs was strictly speaking true, but in reality wasn't.
Number 9 is right in that we didn't play Amadou until we didn't have another player to go at CB except belatedly Tettey, he's yet to start yet to start at DM. Now nobody wants Tetty to play CB anymore.
Someone disagreed with me that we had misjudged the difference in quality between the 2 Leagues, I really don't think I have. I remember loads of posters saying things like "I can't wait to see Buendia rip up the PL next season, Leitner, Vrancic will do well as will Marco and Cantwell". We knew our defence was not good, to be polite, but we all completely misjudged the competency of midfield who have been found wanting with a vengeance.
That wonderful, flowing, attacking football we witnessed last season was the best I've ever seen at CR. We thought the PL was like it was when we were last in it.............................it obviously ain't.
 
morty

morty

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You can't just say we'll buy a 5th CB because one might get injured. Or sell a player because he is injury prone.
 
N

Number 9

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You can't just say we'll buy a 5th CB because one might get injured. Or sell a player because he is injury prone.
We were active in the window, Farke and Webber decided which players went, which stayed and any new incoming.
Overwhelmingly, we've been buying in young players, I distinctly recall being exasperated by the lack of defensive players.
Heise signed in January? Couldn't get a game in the championship.
Byram? He had one good game, hasn't been used as cover for center back, even though that was mentioned when he arrived.
Amadou, was heralded as a proper player but wasn't used in his position.
 
morty

morty

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We were active in the window, Farke and Webber decided which players went, which stayed and any new incoming.
Overwhelmingly, we've been buying in young players, I distinctly recall being exasperated by the lack of defensive players.
Heise signed in January? Couldn't get a game in the championship.
Byram? He had one good game, hasn't been used as cover for center back, even though that was mentioned when he arrived.
Amadou, was heralded as a proper player but wasn't used in his position.
As I have said before, you can't just sell a player that doesn't want to go, you can't buy endless players "just in case" and nobody could have predicted how unlucky we would be in one position.

I think if Byram was happy at CB, he would have been there by now.

We got that Rocky lad in, who went out on loan to Blackpool (?) we also still have Ragget on our books. I am still more on the side of it being pretty bad luck, as opposed to any negligence on the club's part. We were all happy with the togetherness as a squad last season, and I think most bought into the fact that we would keep the squad together, rather than make wholesale changes.

Don't forget also, that you can only have a 25 man squad. But if we don't sign a CB in January, I'll happily join you all down Carrow road with burning torches.
 
Fenway Frank

Fenway Frank

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Heise signed in January? Couldn't get a game in the championship
When would you have left Lewis out of the side to play him ?
Byram? He had one good game, hasn't been used as cover for center back, even though that was mentioned when he arrived
I don’t remember anyone at the club saying he would be cover for our central defenders
Amadou, was heralded as a proper player but wasn't used in his position
Who else would you have played there along with Godfrey ?

I’m not sure we’ll buy in the next window as Hanley and Zimbo could both be fit by then which would give us two to play and one for the bench.
 
OldRobert

OldRobert

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You can't just say we'll buy a 5th CB because one might get injured. Or sell a player because he is injury prone.
Perhaps we shouldn't buy players with a long record of injuries in the first place? I know that makes them cheap, but as you said 2 of our CBs had injuries before the season started, both with poor injury records, yet in the same breath you say we started with 4 CBs...................with respect you can't have it both ways. You don't need to be told that we haven't had 4 fit CBs since day 1. For the record has DF played Hanley even when he was fit or even fittish, as I said before he wanted him to leave, and it seemed Hanley wanted to go so I wouldn't be surprised to see Armadou or Tettey playing CB before a fit Hanley.
 
Din

Din

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I don't think not signing another centre back in the summer is the issue. Zimmermann is our captain and runner-up in the player of the season vote, and Godfrey is England under 21s captain and was superb during the 2nd half of last season. With Klose as back-up who was also very good when he played last year, and if need be Hanley who was one of our best players in Farke's first season, as well as Amadou as emergency cover, that's more than enough options, and I don't think we could've signed anyone who is an upgrade on Godfrey or Zimmermann. Like Morty said you can't just sign an overload of players for each position on the off chance you have the worst injury crisis in the history of the club. On paper our defence coming into this season was more than good enough. Also, I don't know where the idea that Byram can play centre back has come from. Obviously I haven't watched him his whole career, but nothing about him and the way he plays suggests he can fill in there. I imagine if need be Farke would sooner move Lewis into the centre and play Byram at left back.

We conceded a lot of goals last season because of the way we played, not the personnel. We concede a fair amount, but scored more, like we did under Lambert. The problem isn't that we're letting a lot of goals in, because we did that last year and still won the league. The issue is we're not scoring goals. Brighton on Saturday is the perfect example. They didn't score their first goal until the 70th minute, if our attack is on song we score the first goal well before then and it's a completely different game. I don't want to 100% blame the injuries, but it's impossible to overlook the disruption it would've caused to the squad. The constant swapping and changing in midfield means we just haven't been able to get any consistency or balance in that area all season, which has massively impacted how good our attack has been. Add to that Patrick Roberts, who was our main signing in attacking midfield and is probably someone Farke had big plans for this season, is essentially ruling himself out of contention (I said before but basically someone reliable told me Farke does not like his attitude at all, hence why he doesn't feature). While we put in work to make sure the players we sign have an attitude and work ethic that will fit in at the club, that sort of thing is hard to determine until the player actually signs. If instead of him we sign an attacking midfielder who actually wants to be here then maybe they could be a key part of our attack and help us to get the goals we need (and tbh I hope in January if Roberts still hasn't shown enough we send him back to City and sign someone to replace him).

We have been dire away from in particular this season, there's no arguing with that and injuries or not we should be doing better. But I'm still confident that when we get the likes of Zimmermann and Vrancic back, and hopefully have a full-strength team, consistent team for a few games that we will start getting results.
 
Din

Din

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That all said, Saturday was poor regardless. I admittedly didn't watch it but away from home against one of the weakest teams in the league we shouldn't be getting comfortably beaten like that. We shouldn't be in a position where we're bringing Dennis Srbeny, a man who wasn't good enough to be a sub most weeks in the Championship, off the bench to try and get something in the Premier League. We NEED to get 3 points at home to Watford on Friday.
 
N

Number 9

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We conceded a lot of goals last season because of the way we played, not the personnel. We concede a fair amount, but scored more, like we did under Lambert. The problem isn't that we're letting a lot of goals in, because we did that last year and still won the league

Yes and no -
I agree with you that in the Championship we had the policy of outscoring the opposition, which worked often enough to win the league.
I disagree that conceding goals is problematic in the Premier League.
If you let in two + goals per game in the Premier League you get relegated, our history alone shows that.
 
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