Anyone missing Snodgrass?

[morty]

I think I miss pilkington more to be honest, who has stayed fit and has started to play well for Cardiff, but that's because he could play on the left. We are fine on the right with Redmond and Bennett.

Agree with this, its slightly galling that he is fit now, as a fully fit Pilkington is a very good player. How long it lasts is another matter! Having got rid of Pilks and Surman, I feel we should be looking to get a left sided player in on loan.

 

[GazzaTCC]

I'm with Morty re the wide left player. Josh doesn't seem ready for a full 90 minutes and others , Lafferty, Bennett and Hoolahan, aren't natural wide left players

 

[eatonparkboy]

I'm with Morty re the wide left player. Josh doesn't seem ready for a full 90 minutes and others , Lafferty, Bennett and Hoolahan, aren't natural wide left players

Why don't you think Josh is ready? If he is on the bench, then he could be needed from the first minute.

Not that it will matter to the team line up as if we continue this fine run then I'm sure there will be no change in tactics, not until the first substitution anyway.

 

[morty]

Why don't you think Josh is ready? If he is on the bench, then he could be needed from the first minute.

Not that it will matter to the team line up as if we continue this fine run then I'm sure there will be no change in tactics, not until the first substitution anyway.

Not sure if you saw him in the Birmingham game? He was absolutely blowing out of his arse after playing 45 minutes.

 

[Canaryboy]

Why don't you think Josh is ready? If he is on the bench, then he could be needed from the first minute.

Not that it will matter to the team line up as if we continue this fine run then I'm sure there will be no change in tactics, not until the first substitution anyway.

Sorry for the long post in advance... 

We can start him, but we can't start him every week. That's one of the things that we do wrong in this country, expecting too much too soon from young players. Even Arsene Wenger has been guilty of it, with Wilshere, Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain. Do you think it is a coincidence that all three have injury problems? Same with Micheal Owen. We burn our kids out. 

Look at how Barcelona introduced Messi to men's football (all competitions, including sub appearances)...



An example of where a young player has been managed correctly in this country is Wayne Rooney, who in his two full seasons at Everton spent as much time on the bench as he did on the pitch, despite it being obvious that he was a precocious talent. Ironic somewhat that Moyes has become a figure of fun with Man Utd fans but was actually instrumental in Rooney's development. As many of his Everton appearances came from the bench as they did from the start, and he is one who actually went on to fulfill his potential. 

I'm sure that Murphy could start some games, but picking those games carefully and bringing him on in games where he can have an impact is best for his development 

I was concerned that Redmond has played far too much football last season than he should have done. And has probably played far too much football for his age full stop, 130 appearances, 105 of them starts, and he is still only 20 years old.

Michael Owen has said that he played too much football too young. On the continent they have a different school of thought, they believe that young players need long breaks because they are still growing. Most men don't stop growing until they are 21, and are more prone to things like stress fractures as well as muscle and tendon injuries when still growing. Lionel Messi didn't start every week until he was 22 years old. 

Michael Owen was already having hamstring problems by that age, and they destroyed him as a player. 

Then there is the mental side, you have to manage that in young players they aren't often as thick skinned as adults. I can remember the stick that a young Ian Henderson would get when he made a mistake or had a bad game. I always thought he was a great young talent. He was no Craig Bellamy, but didn't expect him to end up playing for Rochdale in League Two and neither would his team mates at the time. He came into the team full of confidence and then just lost it and looked half the player. 

I'm happy with the way that Adams is introducing Murphy to men's football, but wish he would remember that Redmond is just one year older and that we have a perfectly capable right winger in Elliott Bennett who can fill in and give Redmond a break now and again. 

 

[Dubai Mark]

Yes, a quality player who would have shone out at the level we are playing now.......BUT...it was good business and the squad could take it........ how could we not miss a player of his quality?

 

[mustard gas]

Not me. Good as he was, he unbalanced and slowed the team down. If he had been blessed with pace we would not have got a sniff of him. Everton or Spurs would have been his level. Redmond is now improving game by game and encouraged to play a proper wingers game.

 

[eatonparkboy]

Sorry for the long post in advance... 

We can start him, but we can't start him every week. That's one of the things that we do wrong in this country, expecting too much too soon from young players. Even Arsene Wenger has been guilty of it, with Wilshere, Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain. Do you think it is a coincidence that all three have injury problems? Same with Micheal Owen. We burn our kids out. 

Look at how Barcelona introduced Messi to men's football (all competitions, including sub appearances)...

aaaaaaaa.JPG

An example of where a young player has been managed correctly in this country is Wayne Rooney, who in his two full seasons at Everton spent as much time on the bench as he did on the pitch, despite it being obvious that he was a precocious talent. Ironic somewhat that Moyes has become a figure of fun with Man Utd fans but was actually instrumental in Rooney's development. As many of his Everton appearances came from the bench as they did from the start, and he is one who actually went on to fulfill his potential. 

I'm sure that Murphy could start some games, but picking those games carefully and bringing him on in games where he can have an impact is best for his development 

I was concerned that Redmond has played far too much football last season than he should have done. And has probably played far too much football for his age full stop, 130 appearances, 105 of them starts, and he is still only 20 years old.

Michael Owen has said that he played too much football too young. On the continent they have a different school of thought, they believe that young players need long breaks because they are still growing. Most men don't stop growing until they are 21, and are more prone to things like stress fractures as well as muscle and tendon injuries when still growing. Lionel Messi didn't start every week until he was 22 years old. 

Michael Owen was already having hamstring problems by that age, and they destroyed him as a player. 

Then there is the mental side, you have to manage that in young players they aren't often as thick skinned as adults. I can remember the stick that a young Ian Henderson would get when he made a mistake or had a bad game. I always thought he was a great young talent. He was no Craig Bellamy, but didn't expect him to end up playing for Rochdale in League Two and neither would his team mates at the time. He came into the team full of confidence and then just lost it and looked half the player. 

I'm happy with the way that Adams is introducing Murphy to men's football, but wish he would remember that Redmond is just one year older and that we have a perfectly capable right winger in Elliott Bennett who can fill in and give Redmond a break now and again. 

I have to disagree. Some of your facts are incorrect to back up your argument. I have just seen an Owen documentary where he said he had no injuries ever until playing for Liverpool and pulling up with a hamstring injury. Why he continued to have problems is because they rushed him back.

The human being has never been stronger or fitter and the professional sportsman or woman has a wealth of background knowledge and help to keep fit and strong. The treatment for injuries is superb at even the most junior of levels so that a torn cartilage does not mean the end of a career but just a hiatus. Dietary advice and less alcohol consumption means the body is more resilient and able to cope with a greater load.

I find the statement that they are playing too much just an excuse for not selecting them. I believe the only area where they play too much is as youngsters who are playing in competitive leagues of 14 or 16 games a season at 11!

I compete in long distance running and you are not allowed to run a marathon until you are 18. But then a fit, trained individual could run one a week. And at 63 I don't use the excuse I ran too much last week when I need to train for a race next week.

In Murphy's case, I don't know his physiology, but he looks a lean, fit individual and at 19 should be capable of playing twice a week particularly if he is injury free. Its funny how we are prepared to pamper young footballers but are quite prepared to send out 18 year olds, walking for hours at a time with 55lb of kit on their back in searing heat and expect them to perform.

Rugby players at the highest level play each week. Chris Robshaw was playing for Harlequins at 19 and with internationals, plays between 30 and 40 matches a year. And at the highest of physical exertion.

And when will be the right time for Murphy? He is 19+. I may sound callous but these young men are being trained and prepared for life by the club. But they are commodities as such and if we have some talent then I believe we should take the risk of injury and the mysterious burn out if the talent they possess can improve the 1st team.

The only area I am in agreement with you is the abuse a young man might get and you quite rightly mention Ian Henderson. That unfortunately is human nature and NCFC has its share of bigots the same as the Millwalls of this world. Football is as much confidence and momentum and if a young player loses that then he has to be withdrawn.

I do believe that football is happy within its own hype. Cliches are rolled out and unfortunately these excuses are taken as gospel by many supporters. Personally, I take most things that emanate from football clubs, including my own club, with a pinch of salt and a prelude to an excuse.

 

[Canaryboy]

I have to disagree. Some of your facts are incorrect to back up your argument. I have just seen an Owen documentary where he said he had no injuries ever until playing for Liverpool and pulling up with a hamstring injury. Why he continued to have problems is because they rushed him back.

Well he had "no injuries ever until playing for Liverpool" because he hadn't played for anybody else but Liverpool, who he signed for at the age of 12. 

What are you saying is factually incorrect? I said that Owen thinks he played too much football too young.  Confirmation of this here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2244507/Michael-Owen-admits-playing-too-young.html

Alex Ferguson also believes he'd played too much football at a young age: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2234359/Sir-Alex-Ferguson-claims-Liverpool-halted-Michael-Owens-potential.html

As for football fans taking cliches as gospel, it is a medical fact that young athletes are more prone to certain injuries such as stress fractures, and ligament and tendon damage. Yes Michael Owen had a hamstring injury at Liverpool. He was also very young and played a lot of football. The hamstring is a tendon. I'm not sure you have really offered anything to counter my argument that young players need to rest more? 

Owen had played somewhere around 100 games for Liverpool and England by the time he'd reached 20. 

If Sir Alex Ferguson and Michael Owen both believe that he'd played too much football at a young age, then what does that say about Nathan Redmond? 

As for comparing Rugby with Football, the average footballer covers 11.2km in a game, and the average Rugby player covers 7km in a game.

You can't compare it with running either, as it isn't straight line running and it is constant stopping and starting and twisting and turning. 

 

[yellowarmy]

There have been many a player who have moved on throughout my time as a City supporter and whilst i was a fan of Snoddy, he certainly doesn't come close to previous departures i have enjoyed watching play for the club. Not sure on City now being more balanced since his departure as i do feel we are light on the left side and attacks down the wing now tend to come from Redmond and which ever side he has switched to during the game.

 

[eatonparkboy]

Well he had "no injuries ever until playing for Liverpool" because he hadn't played for anybody else but Liverpool, who he signed for at the age of 12. 

What are you saying is factually incorrect? I said that Owen thinks he played too much football too young.  Confirmation of this here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2244507/Michael-Owen-admits-playing-too-young.html

Alex Ferguson also believes he'd played too much football at a young age: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2234359/Sir-Alex-Ferguson-claims-Liverpool-halted-Michael-Owens-potential.html

As for football fans taking cliches as gospel, it is a medical fact that young athletes are more prone to certain injuries such as stress fractures, and ligament and tendon damage. Yes Michael Owen had a hamstring injury at Liverpool. He was also very young and played a lot of football. The hamstring is a tendon. I'm not sure you have really offered anything to counter my argument that young players need to rest more? 

Owen had played somewhere around 100 games for Liverpool and England by the time he'd reached 20. 

If Sir Alex Ferguson and Michael Owen both believe that he'd played too much football at a young age, then what does that say about Nathan Redmond? 

As for comparing Rugby with Football, the average footballer covers 11.2km in a game, and the average Rugby player covers 7km in a game.

You can't compare it with running either, as it isn't straight line running and it is constant stopping and starting and twisting and turning. 

Well where do we start.

I have no doubt that the link you have is correct regarding what Owen said. I simply tell you that in the documentary I watched, Owen said that he had not suffered any injury whatsoever until he he pulled up with a hamstring injury late into his second full season with Liverpool, He also asserts in a separate article that with modern treatment he would have been fine and gone on to break records for goalscoring but Liverpool continued just to patch him up and continue to play him.

You can't compare it with "marathon" running you omitted to say. I can tell you that, I've played football to a reasonable standard and run plenty of marathons and I know what is easier. I fractured my pelvis at 28K in the Paris Marathon and continued to the finish because the body can take it, it can accept injury and pain and can repair.

And having said, you can't compare it, you compare the running distance in rugby and football and yet leave out the scrums, rucks and mauls, let alone tackling, which if you have played rugby will know, saps you strength rapidly and increases the stress on certain areas of the body. And the figures for the apparent average longest distance footballer, Wayne Rooney, are 4K walking, 4.8K jogging, 1.5K running, 1K light sprinting and 0.5 sprinting.

Your assertion that it is a medical fact about younger players only refers to bone injuries. In fact they are less likely to suffer from ligament or muscle injuries. And no doubt there is another school of scientific data that refutes both arguments.

I am sure if Josh Murphy were to receive an injury, he would be well looked after and not rushed back. But not to play him just in case he does get injured or tires does not make sense to me. Rather than him be rested for games, why does he have to train so much? Train two days less a week and play games.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a pissing contest about this. I've enjoyed the debate and respect your views and respect that you might want to respond to this but I'm finished.

 

[Canaryboy]

Well I don't want to get into an argument either, but I do want to respond to this point: 

"Your assertion that it is a medical fact about younger players only refers to bone injuries. In fact they are less likely to suffer from ligament or muscle injuries. And no doubt there is another school of scientific data that refutes both arguments."

Even the NHS claim that it is the case that those who are still growing are more prone to certain injuries, including ligament and tendon injuries and stress fractures. It is simple common sense that a when bones and ligaments are still in the process of growing they aren't as strong.

In fact I had terrible problems with both of my Achilles as a teenager, which left me barely able to walk for a while, attributed to 'growing pains' and absolutely fine now! 

You would not want a teenager playing a 50 game season. That's just my opinion, respect that it is different to yours. Raheem Sterling was rested for a while last season and is often used from the bench.

In fact in the U21 development league we only play a 21 fixture season, there are 22 teams in each division and they play each other just once. They aren't being asked to play a 46 game season like senior teams. 

 

[Lake District Canary]

I think whatever the argument is over younger players and their ability to play a lot of games, I think there is something else to consider - that everyone is different.  Some younger players will be more able than others to withstand a heavier workload of games.    It has to be done on a case by case basis, based on data that can be gleaned from medicals and recovery stats of individual players.  It is in the hand of the physios and medics to decide what is best for this or that player, so although I follow the argument about looking after younger players, I think there is more to it than just age.  

 

[eatonparkboy]

Thank you CanaryBoy for an excellent debate on a subject we have both obviously researched and come to our conclusions about. Respect to you.

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

Thank you CanaryBoy for an excellent debate on a subject we have both obviously researched and come to our conclusions about. Respect to you.

If this was the pinkun this debate would have descended into 7 pages of 'You're a d*ck' 'No you're a d*ck!'...

 

[Surgeryman]

No not really. Decent player but do wonder how his personality affected the team last season.

 

[Fenway Frank]

Heard a story Tuesday night that he didn't want to leave but the club decided it was too good to turn down so told him he was off.

 

[-Matt-]

No not really. Decent player but do wonder how his personality affected the team last season.

He was always having a moan, and I couldn't help but think that it affected the team sometimes.

Can't say I miss him all that much really. Mainly because I now don't nearly have a head on crash with his range rover on my way into my estate.

 

[SussexYellow]

Winners attitude, contributed goals and assists, and we seem to be a starting wiide man short. What's not to miss.

Ok we have the whole inverted wingers debate. But I suspect that under Adams there would have been a lot more swapping of wings.

However if the fee was too good to turn down, will then a good business decision.