Norwich City v Liverpool(home) Saturday 23rd January

[Canaryboy]

it was our failure to close down the game at 3-1 that was the big problem

And Klopp brought on Lallana at 3-2, he finished the game with a goal and an assist. 

So this really has to go down as a Klopp tactical victory, perhaps that was the point where we needed to realise that Liverpool were going to really go for it and tried to close up shop.

 

[GJP]

I didnt catch the game so its difficult for me to comment, but looking at the bench, subs made and goal times, your only really talking about bringing on mulumbu, who hasnt exactly looked up to speed when I've seen him play.  Given the headless chickens the centre midfield and entire defence became (going by the highlights ive seen),I dont see what else could have been done.  I also think you are overly harsh on Rudd.

We lost both our main defensive midfielders pre match, mulumbu doesnt look up to match speed when ive seen him play, in spite of that with 25 mins to go we are 3-1 up.  A manager and goalkeeper cant account for half the team switching off.

All we have learned is you have to play at least one of either Tettey or O'Neil, because there isnt the concentration among any of our defenders (midfield and back four).  Our famed team spirit, its a paradox, we are just as likely to crumble under a bit of pressure as we are to stage a fight back, but this group are mentally weak on the whole.  There are poor performers thoughout, but Russel martin, Newcastle, Everton first half and yesterday, if he doesnt have some sort of screen, goes to pieces.

We really have to consider switching to three at the back with wing backs, much like Southampton did when they couldnt stop shipping goals, needs someone vocal in the middle though, hopefully thats Klose, 3-5-2.   Ironically if we did that I would also bring back Ruddy, Rudd is not to blame for the above but hes a shot stopper, Ruddy is the better at dealing with crosses.

Could he not have brought on Klose? Perhaps he could have put Martin to right back (given that Pinto was abandoning defensive duties frequently). Or perhaps we could have gone 3 at the back and done the wing back thing you suggested. Or maybe he could have brought on Mulumbu, especially as it was clear that Dorrans was knackered very early into the second half.

As for Rudd, a better 'keeper might have saved a couple of those goals or at very least made it harder for the opponent. There's also an uncertainty and unpredictability about when he leaves his line, which, combined with a lack of communication, causes a nervousness.

 

[GJP]

The point is that neither Tettey or O'Neil were available, so the logical alternative would have been Mulumbu.

He had a great game against Man City in October and has only started one league game since. 

But he had a terrible game against City earlier this month.

Although, of course, without a run of games he'll find it difficult to find his best form and match sharpness. Though I've also always thought people are expecting a bit too much from him and earlier in the season some were far too quick and eager to describe him as "a cut above" etc.

 

[Canaryboy]

I don't understand the calls to drop Rudd for the guy who conceded 6 at Newcastle. People seem to be forgetting his man of the match performances when he came in. We can't expect him to save the day in every match though, particularly when our defenders are giving the ball away for fun. What can any keeper do about a short back pass from the half way line that leaves him one on one

I was one who mentioned a possible Ruddy return.

But I wasn't advocating dropping Rudd on the basis that he isn't playing sufficiently well, but rather just curious about whether Ruddy's break from the firing line has done him some good.

I'd take Rudd in current form over the Ruddy that lost his place in the side. But I'd take the reliable, composed and vocal Ruddy that we've seen in the past over Rudd and I can't help but be curious whether Ruddy could come back into the side at some point having majorly benefited from the mental break.

When Joe Hart was dropped for two months by Man City he came back in the form of his life. 

 

[GJP]

If Declan Rudd was 35, not 25, and we'd just loaned him in from another club, would people be happy with his performances?

 

[Canaryboy]

If Declan Rudd was 35, not 25, and we'd just loaned him in from another club, would people be happy with his performances?

If given a straight choice between Rudd on current form, or Ruddy on the form he was showing in the weeks before he was dropped, I'd choose Rudd without a second thought.

And I wouldn't swap him for Mark Bunn, who whilst a great shot stopper would almost give me a heart attack every time he tried to deal with a cross.

But I hope Ruddy can come back into the team at some stage in good form. 

 

[GJP]

Mark Bunn is/was as average as they come at this level. And yeah, I'd have Rudd over him.

But I also think people are quite easily impressed by Rudd because he's from the academy and is "young". And has had to wait for a chance, almost an underdog story.

 

[Din]

As for Rudd, a better 'keeper might have saved a couple of those goals or at very least made it harder for the opponent. There's also an uncertainty and unpredictability about when he leaves his line, which, combined with a lack of communication, causes a nervousness.

I have to agree really. I thought for Milner's goal and Firmino's 2nd he made it a bit too easy. Possibly could've done better for Firmino's 1st seeing as he got a touch on it, although I haven't seen that back properly so that may be harsh.

One thing as well with Ruddy is that you can constantly here him shouting throughout the game, telling people what to do. I haven't heard Rudd do that once. 

 

[Number 9]

Didn't Ruddy play in the cup game v man city?

I can't recall 27000 baying for him to start the next game....

 

[ZLF]

The cup game highlighted the problems.  Ruddy made several good stops, generally played well, was offered little protection by a back 7 with Ryan Bennett and olsson a particular problem even worse than Mulumbu and then made a slight error for the third

The keepers are both OK and like all prem keepers make mistakes.  They are both over exposed due to a soft back 4 so their errors are magnified.   Solve the back 4 and both will improve.  

The crux of nearly all our teams deficiencies come through a weak back four.   As with changing ruddy for Rudd the cause remains the same,  changing back is relatively pointless until one plays badly.  Rudd is not in that place,  although his confidence must be eroding

 

[RhythmicTheory]

Could he not have brought on Klose? Perhaps he could have put Martin to right back (given that Pinto was abandoning defensive duties frequently). Or perhaps we could have gone 3 at the back and done the wing back thing you suggested. Or maybe he could have brought on Mulumbu, especially as it was clear that Dorrans was knackered very early into the second half.

As for Rudd, a better 'keeper might have saved a couple of those goals or at very least made it harder for the opponent. There's also an uncertainty and unpredictability about when he leaves his line, which, combined with a lack of communication, causes a nervousness.

That was certainly an option, but from the limited highlights i've seen you would have wanted to add to centre midfield, another CD would have been over exposed much the same as the others.  He may not have made the same mistakes under pressure, but given it would be his debut hes an unknown quantity in that respect, plus you had another starter alongside him (I think the argument for not having two debutants in our defence was a valid one).

I think the issue you describe with Rudd is down to lack of confidence caused by the defense in front of him, like zlf suggests.  I think any keeper would be much the same in this situation.  It comparing our keepers, I base my views on the fact that when we have had a solid defence and midfield, Rudd has made some good stops (and 2 clean sheets) and not made the unforced errors Ruddy did.

 

[GJP]

I have to agree really. I thought for Milner's goal and Firmino's 2nd he made it a bit too easy. Possibly could've done better for Firmino's 1st seeing as he got a touch on it, although I haven't seen that back properly so that may be harsh.

One thing as well with Ruddy is that you can constantly here him shouting throughout the game, telling people what to do. I haven't heard Rudd do that once. 

Looked a bit like the 1st goal was going wide.

 

[Gaffer]

Mark Bunn is/was as average as they come at this level. And yeah, I'd have Rudd over him.

He got a clean sheet for Villa on Saturday.

 

[GJP]

That's why I said average and not hopeless.

 

[Canaryboy]

He got a clean sheet for Villa on Saturday.

That does tend to happen when the opposition get 0 shots on target 

 

[Gaffer]

I'd call Bunn a safe pair of hands. He was after all our main keeper the last time we survived in the Premier League. Rudd looks like he could turn into something special though if he's given a fair run as first choice and decent training.

 

[KeiranShikari]

I liked Bunn but he wasn't tall/commanding enough. Solid keeper though.

Not sold on Rudd yet but he's one of our ooooooooooooooown so I hope he does well, of course. 

Ruddy is our best though and I'm still pretty sure he'll come back from his drop off in form.

 

[ZLF]

Solve your biggest problems first

Centre back 

Centre back

Right back

Striker

Attack cm

Left back

Def midfield

Keeper

We have addressed some of these.

If you think we can uncover a keeper to mask the def problems his signing goes to the top, (who is the next neuer??) Otherwise focus on the priorities,  we can do with better keepers,  but several other areas need strengthening first