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GJP
Well-Known Member
Looking to me a bit like AN has lost his way. Doesn't look like a happy, confident team at he moment.I hope come next April we aren't in the bottom three but on today's performance it looks bleak
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Din
Well-Known Member
Just watching the goals back:
1st Newcastle Goal: Martin steps out of position, because of that Bassong just leaves his man who then goes on to score. Both Bassong and Martin to blame.
2nd Goal: Atrocious marking from Whittaker, allows Wijnaldum to get in front of him easily and score. Ruddy should've done better though. Whittaker and to a lesser extent Ruddy to blame.
3rd Goal: Can't really blame anyone. Olsson makes a good block and is unlucky when it falls to Perez. Midfield though were slow to get back.
4th Goal: Martin just allows Mitrovic to peel off him, he has no idea where he is and ends up scoring. Appalling from Martin, and he's to blame.
5th Goal: Martin again culpable as he's the one marking Wijnaldum but again loses him and he ends up scoring. Martin to blame again.
6th Goal: Whittaker no-where near tight enough to Wijnaldum, if he's tighter he makes the block however he's not and it simply deflects off him and in. Whittaker to blame again.
We didn't bring in a new centre back and that is dearly dearly costing us now. Martin wasn't bad in the Leicester game, but to be almost solely responsible for 3 goals against the team who were bottom of the league today is unnacceptable. Get Whittaker and Martin out, Wisdom and R.Bennett (who on his day is a very good centre back) in.
1st Newcastle Goal: Martin steps out of position, because of that Bassong just leaves his man who then goes on to score. Both Bassong and Martin to blame.
2nd Goal: Atrocious marking from Whittaker, allows Wijnaldum to get in front of him easily and score. Ruddy should've done better though. Whittaker and to a lesser extent Ruddy to blame.
3rd Goal: Can't really blame anyone. Olsson makes a good block and is unlucky when it falls to Perez. Midfield though were slow to get back.
4th Goal: Martin just allows Mitrovic to peel off him, he has no idea where he is and ends up scoring. Appalling from Martin, and he's to blame.
5th Goal: Martin again culpable as he's the one marking Wijnaldum but again loses him and he ends up scoring. Martin to blame again.
6th Goal: Whittaker no-where near tight enough to Wijnaldum, if he's tighter he makes the block however he's not and it simply deflects off him and in. Whittaker to blame again.
We didn't bring in a new centre back and that is dearly dearly costing us now. Martin wasn't bad in the Leicester game, but to be almost solely responsible for 3 goals against the team who were bottom of the league today is unnacceptable. Get Whittaker and Martin out, Wisdom and R.Bennett (who on his day is a very good centre back) in.
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GJP
Well-Known Member
I haven't watched it back but from memory..
2nd Goal - Newcastle exploiting the weakness that is the space between Martin and Whittaker, particularly because Martin is often in no man's land.
3rd Goal - Redmond simply couldn't be arsed to work hard to get back. It was 3 vs 3 and he had the chance to get back or at least foul the man but he just stepped off the gas and let it happen.
Canaryboy
Well-Known Member
I just think he made one huge error today, which was to make a significant tactical change when we were on top and looking a good bet to score an equaliser with half an hour left to play.
Taking off our only defensive midfielder (who was having a good game) for Hoolahan with half an hour to go was an odd decision, especially when Dorrans had contributed very little.
We were left with Brady, Redmond, Howson, Dorrans and Hoolahan in midfield at one point, you couldn't pick a more lightweight midfield if you tried. Are we sure there wasn't room for Bradley Johnson in this squad?
I can't sit here and blame all 6 goals on defensive errors by named individuals when it is just obvious that that midfield is going to be brushed aside with ease by any team with pace and power, which Newcastle had already shown they had in the first half.
I just don't ever want to see us without either of of Tettey or Mulumbu on the pitch in this league again, we need an 'enforcer' or 'anchor man' of some sort shielding the back four.
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GJP
Well-Known Member
I am. And especially for £6m-£7m.
Last time we were in the Prem teams just ran around and past Johnson too easily.
morty
Moderator
Staff member
The change was too soon, there was no urgency, there was plenty left of the game. Its a shame that we need an enforcer to protect our back four though, they should be capable of doing it themselves.
Canaryboy
Well-Known Member
Watch this first goal again, what on earth was Olsson doing leaving the number 17 in space and wandering off? If he'd stayed with his man initially (number 17) then he may have picked up Bassong's man. The most clueless defender here looks like Olsson, who left his man completely alone in space. Like he didn't even know he was there.
But he was left with two men to mark there because Bassong had steamed out of the box to close down the crosser, leaving the big number 7 unmarked who sold the dummy by jumping for the ball, Martin had two men to mark there. It should have been Olsson's job to get back and close that player down and Bassong staying with the number 7 who was his man but left unmarked, I don't blame this one on Martin, our entire back 4 is disorganised. Bassong and Olsson equally culpable. Whittaker and Martin should not have been left outnumbered there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ1Mk_6pKbc
Watch those two again and let me know what you think. I'm sick of this Martin-Whittaker duo too (would like to see Wisdom tried in replace of either one of them) but its our whole back 5 mate, not just Whittaker and Martin. The defence was a shambles.
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Dubai Mark
Active Member
Its so easy to blame individuals at such times, but at this level you have to defend as a team, as a unit, and we just didnt do that, hence the back four was left out to dry. Add to that the fact that we didnt learn a lesson at all from the Leicester game, and also failed to learn it during this game, then I guess we deserved a tonking.
Sure we should have strengthened the CB situation in the squad, but it wouldnt have mattered who was playing in that back four yesterday they would still have been exposed by our tactical naivety and lack of defending as a team, which we were doing just a few games ago.
What frustrates me, not on here but elsewhere, is that it appears you become a "binner" as soon as you dare criticise our Manager, but even taking in to account the amazing job he has done so far in getting us back in the league, it is clear that he is still finding his feet at this level, which was very clear yesterday and was also vs Leicester too.........This is how it got with Paul Lambert too when he messed up, and in reverse for Chris Houghton, where it was somehow a crime to give any praise when it was due on an occasion.
Clearly we have a tougher season ahead of us than some of us expected.....
Sure we should have strengthened the CB situation in the squad, but it wouldnt have mattered who was playing in that back four yesterday they would still have been exposed by our tactical naivety and lack of defending as a team, which we were doing just a few games ago.
What frustrates me, not on here but elsewhere, is that it appears you become a "binner" as soon as you dare criticise our Manager, but even taking in to account the amazing job he has done so far in getting us back in the league, it is clear that he is still finding his feet at this level, which was very clear yesterday and was also vs Leicester too.........This is how it got with Paul Lambert too when he messed up, and in reverse for Chris Houghton, where it was somehow a crime to give any praise when it was due on an occasion.
Clearly we have a tougher season ahead of us than some of us expected.....
ZLF
Well-Known Member
Seb was the best of a poor bunch of the defenders yesterday; none of whom offered Ruddy much in the way of protection - and I genuinely dont think Ruddy could have done much better. Structurally the balance of the defensive seems wrong; too many times we almost played a diamond back 4 with martin headlong running deep, keeping the opposition onside far to deep; while bassong has to go left to cover the awol lb (often brady, yesterday olsson) and whittaker running slowly at full pelt back on the right, with tettey or a midfeilder at the tip. That formation is a recipe for disaster - and teh structure for the 4th & 5th goals but evident much earlier.
I do think that the attacking midfielders needed to contribute more defensively and were as culpable for yesterdays goals. The gaping hole left by Tettey demonstrates just how much the team rely on him; Brady (who covered the defensively woeful Olsson) just about did enough but neither redmond, dorrans nor howson did enough. Redmonds attacking threat makes it a little more foregiveable.
Their third goal was a great example of this. Can anyone explain why in the 33rd minute and from open play we have 7 players in and around the newcastle box? It wasnt the 83rd minute and toon were vulnerable; to commit so many players forward was suicide and ultimately this was the killer goal; Redmond should have been able to take a shot from the edge of the area with some confidence that if it was blocked we had enough defensive cover; the full backs and midfield have to play with more discipline than that; only on from that seven over committed attack could be arsed to work it back. It was very reminiscent of the poor tactical discipline we saw in the home defeat to Brentford last season when we conceded when whits lost possession in the centre circle (and wrongly blamed) with just centre backs behind him because the whole team had gone gung ho and was ahead of him.
We play good attacking football; but we are showing kevin keeganesque irresponsibility again and have to balance the persistent average of conceding 2 goals a game as we wont consistently score 3 to win a game.
I do think that the attacking midfielders needed to contribute more defensively and were as culpable for yesterdays goals. The gaping hole left by Tettey demonstrates just how much the team rely on him; Brady (who covered the defensively woeful Olsson) just about did enough but neither redmond, dorrans nor howson did enough. Redmonds attacking threat makes it a little more foregiveable.
Their third goal was a great example of this. Can anyone explain why in the 33rd minute and from open play we have 7 players in and around the newcastle box? It wasnt the 83rd minute and toon were vulnerable; to commit so many players forward was suicide and ultimately this was the killer goal; Redmond should have been able to take a shot from the edge of the area with some confidence that if it was blocked we had enough defensive cover; the full backs and midfield have to play with more discipline than that; only on from that seven over committed attack could be arsed to work it back. It was very reminiscent of the poor tactical discipline we saw in the home defeat to Brentford last season when we conceded when whits lost possession in the centre circle (and wrongly blamed) with just centre backs behind him because the whole team had gone gung ho and was ahead of him.
We play good attacking football; but we are showing kevin keeganesque irresponsibility again and have to balance the persistent average of conceding 2 goals a game as we wont consistently score 3 to win a game.
ZLF
Well-Known Member
The tettey decision was wrong even without the benefit of 5 mins of hindsight; both howson and dorrans were having significantly worse games offer neither creative options nor defensive cover; to remove the protective film was the wrong choice.
He also needs to curb his enthusiasm for attacking full backs - the cbs dont have the pace or positional sense to deal with counter attacks; consistently throwing so many bodies forward has to be balanced; one full back at a time and keep a kabbadi-esque movement chain of three across the back flexing depending on which one bombs on. Defenders have to remember what their primary role is; I said a couple of weeks ago a ball playing cb in martin is great as long as he defends, exactly the same applies to both full backs.
20 goals in 9 games is a huge concern.
ZLF
Well-Known Member
The saddest thing was that the points were there to be won; we were again missing the high intensity defending from the front game I associate with AN but against a low in confidence Toon we should not have come away empty handed - we seemed to have lost when Wijnaldum cleared Sebs header off the line (i think it was still 3-2) - had we scored then we would have gone on to secure at least a point.
Such is the prem
Such is the prem
Personal Trainer
New Member
Come on folks, surely nobody expected this season to be easy, certainly the bookies and they are usually not far wrong. At this moment in time I would willingly take 17th place.
eatonparkboy
New Member
We've been through that attitude with Hughton. That should not be our aim. We want to see some performance. Otherwise we might as well be in the Championship winning games easier.
Of course it will be hard in this league, we will find out in two games time certainly. But against the bottom team, only one goal down away from home and having shots cleared off the line and total dominance, we fell apart after the bizarre substitution.
We can only react to what we saw and it was awful and has just stopped us on our tracks after the confidence of the first few games.
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Lavanche
New Member
Well as I said before the season we have very oddly balanced team and expecting anything else than hardly surviving is optimistic. We have had quite easy fixtures this far and outside of Liverpool we haven't faced really any team that we expect to beat us 4 times from 5. Newcastle for example had faced already both Manchester teams, Arsenal and Chelsea. We probably don't expect to get many points from those 4 games and before we are at half way of the season there are also hard games of Everton and Tottenham where we are clearly underdogs thought getting victory from them wouldn't be a huge surprise. That leaves WBA, Swansea, Watford and Aston Villa where we would need to get remaining points to get over 20 points benchmark to not be under huge pressure for latter part of the season.
So we really should be at better position in league at the moment if we are expecting anything more than relegation battle with Bournemouth, Sunderland, Villa and mayby Newcastle and Watford.
Have to remember that teams that made more signings will most likely get bit better when season goes on as players start to find eachother. Our biggest strenght before the season was that we had almost identical team from Wembley final with good momentum behind them. Now that advantage start to be over and we haven't really looked like a solid compact team which we should be to compete against teams with more gifted players and that is something that worries me.
Don't get me wrong we have played well in most of the games, but we make very cheap mistakes, players have problems with positioning and we tend to have huge gap between attack and defence which has hurt us from counters as there is always space to just run with the ball and as our team isn't fastest in the league that means 1 vs 1 situations against defenders which is always bad thing even for bigger teams than us.
Good thing thought is that even thought we play quite straightforward football we are doing it well. I mean under Lambert we tend to just kick the ball from defence to the wingers to run or to Holt to fight, but now we have good passing combinations and specially our left side is dangerous at build up with Olsson or Jarvis as pacey crossers and Brady has good eye for passes which has surprised me a bit as I considered him more of a crosser and shooter. Right side thought seems to be a bit weak spot for us. As Hoolahan is leftie he tends to drift left and Whittaker really isn't that good with passing and crossing it leaves Redmond alone there. In more advanced position Howson has been a bit out of his depth this season and his combination plays with Redmond haven't worked that well. Also surprising our both main strikers seems to drift left which must be tactical choise thought I had hard time to understand why Mbokani was wide yesterday when we had the ball in crossing position. Redmond and Brady wont make many goals with their head and Howson isn't Johnson what comes rushing from second wave.
Anyway there still is 3 teams that have been worse than us (Bournemouth, Villa and Sunderland) and as long we keep it that way we should survive. I wouldn't expect us to make many signing at January. That window just has so few good players moving in reasonably price and we dont need second choises, we need first choises for our few weak spots. I still don't get why Wisdom for example wont get more game time as he clearly is a player that would tighten our defence and Whittaker has been so poor going forward that it wouldn't hurt to have more defensive option to protect our line.
So we really should be at better position in league at the moment if we are expecting anything more than relegation battle with Bournemouth, Sunderland, Villa and mayby Newcastle and Watford.
Have to remember that teams that made more signings will most likely get bit better when season goes on as players start to find eachother. Our biggest strenght before the season was that we had almost identical team from Wembley final with good momentum behind them. Now that advantage start to be over and we haven't really looked like a solid compact team which we should be to compete against teams with more gifted players and that is something that worries me.
Don't get me wrong we have played well in most of the games, but we make very cheap mistakes, players have problems with positioning and we tend to have huge gap between attack and defence which has hurt us from counters as there is always space to just run with the ball and as our team isn't fastest in the league that means 1 vs 1 situations against defenders which is always bad thing even for bigger teams than us.
Good thing thought is that even thought we play quite straightforward football we are doing it well. I mean under Lambert we tend to just kick the ball from defence to the wingers to run or to Holt to fight, but now we have good passing combinations and specially our left side is dangerous at build up with Olsson or Jarvis as pacey crossers and Brady has good eye for passes which has surprised me a bit as I considered him more of a crosser and shooter. Right side thought seems to be a bit weak spot for us. As Hoolahan is leftie he tends to drift left and Whittaker really isn't that good with passing and crossing it leaves Redmond alone there. In more advanced position Howson has been a bit out of his depth this season and his combination plays with Redmond haven't worked that well. Also surprising our both main strikers seems to drift left which must be tactical choise thought I had hard time to understand why Mbokani was wide yesterday when we had the ball in crossing position. Redmond and Brady wont make many goals with their head and Howson isn't Johnson what comes rushing from second wave.
Anyway there still is 3 teams that have been worse than us (Bournemouth, Villa and Sunderland) and as long we keep it that way we should survive. I wouldn't expect us to make many signing at January. That window just has so few good players moving in reasonably price and we dont need second choises, we need first choises for our few weak spots. I still don't get why Wisdom for example wont get more game time as he clearly is a player that would tighten our defence and Whittaker has been so poor going forward that it wouldn't hurt to have more defensive option to protect our line.
Din
Well-Known Member
1st goal watching it back I agree with you. Olsson charges out of position and leaves his man unmarked, Bassong then has no idea what to do. Martin also f*cks up by also going towards the ball rather than keeping his position, however yeah I agree, Olsson is primarily to blame here.
The 5th goal though I don't quite agree with as much. Yes Bassong leaves his man but I don't really think he had too much choice, as if he doesn't close the crosser down nobody does. Plus whilst he does leave his man (Sissoko) unmarked, Sissoko ultimately doesn't particularly play a part in the goal itself once he's released the ball. Once Sissoko plays the pass you could take him out of the move and Wijnaldum would still head the ball into the back of the net. For me Martin is still primarily to blame here, as he does not track Wijnaldum. If he does his bit it doesn't matter what anybody else does the ball doesn't go in, but he didn't. That all said though the midfield need to get back so much quicker. Howson is the only midfielder in shot for that whole move, and even he didn't get back quick enough.
I agree the defence as a unit is to blame here, as well as the midfield. But some players for me are more culpable than others. Whilst obviously you can look at what went wrong with the goals, what it doesn't show is that aerially Bassong was actually good all game, and actually didn't have a terrible game, and whilst Olsson's defensive contribution was questionable to say the least, he got 2 assists yesterday. Whereas both Whittaker and Martin contributed nothing. For me if you took Martin and Whittaker out of the side and replaced them with 2 good defenders then our defensive problems would be reduced. However if you took Bassong and Olsson/Brady out of the side and replaced them with 2 good defenders then we'd still have defensive problems, because whilst I hate to say it, they are the weak links in this side.
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Canaryboy
Well-Known Member
Nice to have somebody verify that I'm not talking out of my arse for once :lol:
Bassong must feel really frustrated playing with inferior defenders at times, I know he has his moments but he's simply far better than any other of our defenders with his decision making and positioning. Its a shame Turners age started to catch up with him because the Turner we saw in 2012/13 would walk into this side alongside Bassong.
We didn't adequately replace Turner, Martin just isn't good enough to play that position at this level.
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ZLF
Well-Known Member
Martins a curious one; looking at all of prem games following lamberts promotion we have consistently earned more points per game with martin starting at cb than rb. Not what I expected to see. Whether this means he is a better cb than the alternatives or whittaker the better rb is open to debate (my long held view is that tha there is very little difference between whits and russ at RB).
However what is more stark is that we win significantly more points per game (and concede fewer goals) when martin does not start at all; thats in total and for each and every individual season too.
However what is more stark is that we win significantly more points per game (and concede fewer goals) when martin does not start at all; thats in total and for each and every individual season too.
eatonparkboy
New Member
Forget the stats. On Sunday, according to SSN, we were third in the amount of passes made, second in the amount of attempts on goal and third in percentage possession. Of course the one they didn't mention was top in goals conceded. Two shots against the woodwork and two cleared off the line.
It is wholly apparent that Newcastle were as bad as us but their defence coped better. And they were bottom. Surgery is needed.
Against Albion I think we ought to try Wisdom, Bennett, Bassong, Ollson.
morty
Moderator
Staff member
I would be slightly wary of changing too much at once. If Alex in insistent on keeping his Captain on the pitch then he should switch to RB, and bring Bennet in at CB.
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Personal Trainer
New Member
I thought Neville and Carragher summed it up brlliantly on Monday Night Football and their dissection of City's defensive problems last Sunday should be shown to the team. There was much praise for the marauding fullbacks but amazement at how the midfield, post Tettey, failed to move back to cover the spaces.
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