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GJP
Well-Known Member
You never go anywhere unless you get the defence rIght. Ours hasn't been right for 1-2 years.
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ZLF
Well-Known Member
Impossible to disagree with that GJP, and something I have been putting as our top need for seasons too. Kloses error is inexcusable and the ease with which Martin embarrasing
However defending starts from the front and is heavily dependent on the midfield, even more so when you KNOW you have defensive issues.
Mainly the CBs did at least compete on sat, despite their errors, the same can not be said for the midfield; they offered no protection, did not get the ball back having lamely given it away, lack of competitiveness for the loose ball and being unavailable to receive the ball simply amplified those glaring defensive frailties.
Bassong Klose on Sunday.
However defending starts from the front and is heavily dependent on the midfield, even more so when you KNOW you have defensive issues.
Mainly the CBs did at least compete on sat, despite their errors, the same can not be said for the midfield; they offered no protection, did not get the ball back having lamely given it away, lack of competitiveness for the loose ball and being unavailable to receive the ball simply amplified those glaring defensive frailties.
Bassong Klose on Sunday.
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GJP
Well-Known Member
I also wonder if the Newcastle game knocked the stuffing out of them a bit. People held it up as a good result, hard fought point etc
But realistically our lads must have known they were outplayed by Newcastle. A side they should be a lot closer to than they are.
But realistically our lads must have known they were outplayed by Newcastle. A side they should be a lot closer to than they are.
Canaryboy
Well-Known Member
I just think we aren't good enough. I don't care how many talented individuals we have, its a squad game and our squad is clearly not good enough.
With all players fit we may be able to name a strongest 11 and there may only be a couple of teams who could do the same and come up with a stronger team 'on paper'.
But that's utterly irrelevant in reality. Because if Sheffield Wednesday (in the top 6) named their best 11 they'd be leaving three out of Steven Fletcher, Jordan Rhodes, Gary Hooper, Atdhe Nuhiu, and Fernando Forestieri on the bench.
When Alex Neil got us out of this division it was us with the likes of Gary Hooper and Lewis Grabban coming off the bench. Now we're having to use Kyle Lafferty. What better illustration do we need that it is a squad game, the fact that consider our best striker to be at least as good as any of their 5 is utterly irrelevant when you've not got one on the bench chomping at the bit to come on to change a game.
Its easy to own a Martin Olsson, or a Djiks, and proudly declare that you have the best left back in the division. But its scant consolation when that player gets an injury and has to play at 70% because your only other option is a right footed right back who arguably isn't even good enough in his best position.
Its great that opposing fans can throw around claims that they'd beaten a team with "real Premier League quality", but if you ask them to name, say 5, of our players that they think may be Premier League quality they'd actually be naming 3 who play in the exact same position. So that's up to 3 players who are both Premier League quality and not playing out of position or sitting on the bench then is it?
Perhaps we do have 5 genuine Premier League quality players. But if we do, we'd be much better off if they were distributed more evenly through the pitch wouldn't we.
The reality is that our squad isn't good enough and its needs somebody to have a big attempt at a rebuild. We need to start by releasing Whittaker, Bassong, Mulumbu, Lafferty, and Turner in the summer.
We should try and keep hold of Ruddy and possibly Bennett.
And a new manager, one with a history of being able to put together a promising squad on a budget, should be the one who gets the opportunity to do it.
That man is Mark Warburton for me.
Alex, a couple of good memories mate. Hopefully one more against Ipswich, thanks for your efforts and good luck with the rest of your career.
With all players fit we may be able to name a strongest 11 and there may only be a couple of teams who could do the same and come up with a stronger team 'on paper'.
But that's utterly irrelevant in reality. Because if Sheffield Wednesday (in the top 6) named their best 11 they'd be leaving three out of Steven Fletcher, Jordan Rhodes, Gary Hooper, Atdhe Nuhiu, and Fernando Forestieri on the bench.
When Alex Neil got us out of this division it was us with the likes of Gary Hooper and Lewis Grabban coming off the bench. Now we're having to use Kyle Lafferty. What better illustration do we need that it is a squad game, the fact that consider our best striker to be at least as good as any of their 5 is utterly irrelevant when you've not got one on the bench chomping at the bit to come on to change a game.
Its easy to own a Martin Olsson, or a Djiks, and proudly declare that you have the best left back in the division. But its scant consolation when that player gets an injury and has to play at 70% because your only other option is a right footed right back who arguably isn't even good enough in his best position.
Its great that opposing fans can throw around claims that they'd beaten a team with "real Premier League quality", but if you ask them to name, say 5, of our players that they think may be Premier League quality they'd actually be naming 3 who play in the exact same position. So that's up to 3 players who are both Premier League quality and not playing out of position or sitting on the bench then is it?
Perhaps we do have 5 genuine Premier League quality players. But if we do, we'd be much better off if they were distributed more evenly through the pitch wouldn't we.
The reality is that our squad isn't good enough and its needs somebody to have a big attempt at a rebuild. We need to start by releasing Whittaker, Bassong, Mulumbu, Lafferty, and Turner in the summer.
We should try and keep hold of Ruddy and possibly Bennett.
And a new manager, one with a history of being able to put together a promising squad on a budget, should be the one who gets the opportunity to do it.
That man is Mark Warburton for me.
Alex, a couple of good memories mate. Hopefully one more against Ipswich, thanks for your efforts and good luck with the rest of your career.
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GJP
Well-Known Member
In my opinion Bennett should be top of the list to get rid of. Been here 5 years now and he's never been the answer. Gets the odd run of games when others are injured or out of form but never cements his place. Always plays in the comfort zone, never looks like he is going to really die for the cause.
Obviously there are cases where players are on good contracts here that won't be matched elsewhere so we have been stuck with those players but I don't think we have been ruthless enough. Had we got say Bassong and Turner out the door in the summer would AN have been looking to replace Martin? I can't see it.
Canaryboy
Well-Known Member
Yeah and who handed Russell Martin a contract until 2019, Alex Neil
I'm not sure about Ryan Bennett. He's basically lower Championship standard. He wouldn't look out of place as a first team player at Blackburn, Rotherham, Bristol City.
But he has largely been a bit part player for 5 years, can you really expect any better than Ryan Bennett as a 3rd / 4th choice? Whilst we are in this league?
Really depends how much he is on really doesn't it. He was very highly rated when he came here, wouldn't surprise me if he is on a serious wage. That's the bit that us fans aren't privvy to and its a major factor.
We don't know which players are fringe players but being paid accordingly, and which players are a huge drain on our resources. Would be quite nice if salaries were disclosed like they are in the MLS actually. Fans actually discuss 'value for money' in that context. E.g. can't believe such and such is only on $150k a year.
My opinion on Ryan Benett would obviously be massively different depending on whether he is on £20k a week or £5k a week. And the extent to which I would want Bassong or Bennett released more would depend on which is taking the most money from us. Highly likely to be Bassong on serious wedge, I'm completely done with Bassong now. Cheerio.
Information like this would be really valuable.
This is why fans suggestions are always back of a fag packet. Its impossible to know where our resources are being allocated and where we are getting good value for money and where we are being taken for mugs.
Take Whittaker for example. He got a one year extension because Alex Neil thought he was good enough to be a backup player here. But for all we know he could be playing for a quarter of his wage from last season to reflect his new squad status, we just have no idea.
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GJP
Well-Known Member
To me it's just felt for a while like Cosy Colney. Too many players on nice contracts just having to go through the motions.
Someone like Bennett appears to be a prime example. Spending 5 years in his 20s seemingly being relatively happy at being backup.
Not that I would blame anyone for taking the money. If you're happy doing a bit of training in the morning and playing a bit of XBox with the lads in the afternoon for your £25k pw then good luck to you.
Someone like Bennett appears to be a prime example. Spending 5 years in his 20s seemingly being relatively happy at being backup.
Not that I would blame anyone for taking the money. If you're happy doing a bit of training in the morning and playing a bit of XBox with the lads in the afternoon for your £25k pw then good luck to you.
Din
Well-Known Member
We do need a clearout, in a way it wouldn't be the worse thing in the world if we don't go up because it should kick our arses into gear a little bit. Whittaker, Bassong, Mulumbu, Lafferty, Bennett, Turner (how on Earth is he still here?),all need to go. Maybe even the likes of Naismith, Ruddy and possibly Klose. We need a lot of new, young blood.
I actually thought we'd turned a corner recently, particularly after beating Cardiff away, which was the sort of game that in our abysmal run earlier in the season we would've lost. However the Burton game was just a reminder that our bottle mentality away from home remains.
Think that's our chances of play-offs gone now to be honest. The teams above us are all playing really well, so realistically to catch them we'll have to go on a run reminiscent of the one we went on 2 seasons ago, which I cannot see happening.
I actually thought we'd turned a corner recently, particularly after beating Cardiff away, which was the sort of game that in our abysmal run earlier in the season we would've lost. However the Burton game was just a reminder that our bottle mentality away from home remains.
Think that's our chances of play-offs gone now to be honest. The teams above us are all playing really well, so realistically to catch them we'll have to go on a run reminiscent of the one we went on 2 seasons ago, which I cannot see happening.
Canaryboy
Well-Known Member
Turner had some clause in his contract which gave him an automatic 1 year extension I think. Can't put that one on Alex Neil.
Can't really blame a 33 year old for hanging on for one more year of big money. I'd do it if I were him. He's had his 6 years in the best league in the world and isn't getting back there.
Its when younger players do it that it really grates. Like Lafferty really, has spent 3 years which should be his peak years choosing money and moaning on twitter over going and playing and creating some memories. When you are old, grey, fat, on your third divorce and working out whether you should drive a taxi or run a pub for a living... you've only really got your legacy and memories to fall back on. He could have gone and become a bit of a local legend in Aberdeen or Bolton or somewhere in the three years that he has wasted making 5 minute cameos here.
Then again, I guess he's got a cushy job as a pundit for 30 years worth of Northern Ireland international friendlies waiting for him when he's hung up his boots.
Can't really blame a 33 year old for hanging on for one more year of big money. I'd do it if I were him. He's had his 6 years in the best league in the world and isn't getting back there.
Its when younger players do it that it really grates. Like Lafferty really, has spent 3 years which should be his peak years choosing money and moaning on twitter over going and playing and creating some memories. When you are old, grey, fat, on your third divorce and working out whether you should drive a taxi or run a pub for a living... you've only really got your legacy and memories to fall back on. He could have gone and become a bit of a local legend in Aberdeen or Bolton or somewhere in the three years that he has wasted making 5 minute cameos here.
Then again, I guess he's got a cushy job as a pundit for 30 years worth of Northern Ireland international friendlies waiting for him when he's hung up his boots.
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