Would you have Ched Evans?

[Canaryboy]

I'm intrigued by this statement as it seems to undermine your previous argument. You believe that under our legal system Ched Evans has served his punishment and therefore has a right to seek employment with a professional football club.....so long as it isn't the one that you support?

Just take a moment to read the title of this thread, look at the options on the poll, and the content of the original post. All started by me. In the very first post I stated that I wouldn't want him at this club unless he had his conviction overturned. I voted "No" in the poll. I made my stance clear in the very first post on this thread. 

I don't think it is any of my business what Sheffield United do, just like it wouldn't be a Sheffield United fans business what our club does. But they have been pressured by the national media, lobbyist groups and the wider public into their decision. Thought I made it pretty clear that I didn't feel it was anybodies business unless they were a stakeholder in Sheffield United, which I'm not and you are probably not. 

Sheffield United have never stated their intention to offer Evans a contract, this entire media sh*tstorm has evolved around the fact that he'd been given the opportunity to train and get fit. Do I support the right to a man to train and stay fit whilst he pursues his right to a review of his conviction? Yes, I do. Lets not start clouding the issue, a contract by Sheffield United wasn't yet even on the agenda. 

Would I be happy for Evans to train here, if players and coaching staff were happy with it? Yes, sure. Are we going to deny convicts use of fitness facilities now? He could have studied for a university degree or written a novel inside prison, so I'm pretty sure he should be allowed to run around on a piece of grass kicking a football outside, or to use a gym. 

 

[Canaryboy]

I've now removed both references to rape apology, can we all play nice now?

I hope that we can, I think perhaps a good start would be locking this thread later tonight and forgetting it happened until Evans either signs for a club or gets his appeal hearing. 

 

[Canaryboy]

I'd recommend that anybody reads that Sheffield United statement, to understand precisely what it is that they are objecting to so vehemently. 

http://www.sufc.co.uk/news/article/20141111-statement-2078346.aspx

They had agreed to a request from the PFA to allow Ched Evans to use their training facilities to assist his return to fitness. As a result of this complete sh*tstorm they have withdrawn that offer.

If we are going to completely dehumanise those convicted of a crime and deny them the use of a gym and a piece of grass, then we might as well not release prisoners at all. 

Would I want Norwich to sign Ched Evans, a convicted rapist? No, not unless he gets his conviction overturned. I've said that from the very first post in this thread. 

Would I be furious if Norwich allowed Evans to use our facilities at Colney whilst he fights his conviction? No, I wouldn't be bothered. Convicts are given access to fitness facilities in prison, it would be backwards to deny them access to similar facilities outside of prison.

I support his right to get fit, and his right to appeal. If that makes me a "rape apologist" then so be it, but if we don't support basic rights like that then we might as well just adopt an American system and lock everybody up for life with no parole.

 

[Moosheep]

Yes I can. 

http://www.sufc.co.uk/news/article/20141111-statement-2078346.aspx

Did you look on their website? 

I hadn't. I have now. What a well worded statement. 

It just took me about 30 seconds to ascertain that ROTL and Day Release are exactly the same thing. 

Yes, you are right, although the public perception of 'day release' is where an offender leave the confines of the prison on a regular basis, usually to carry out some work in the community. This happens in category D prisons and not category C prisons.

 

[Canaryboy]

I think I may have got the day release thing wrong, he was due to be given ROTL to train with Sheffield United in July, but can't find any evidence that it materialised. 

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

Dont lock the thread. It may have caused some disagreement but its an emotive subject. To lock the thread would be to stifle further debate, which goes against the grain for me. Is that not what a forum is supposed to be about.

Try not to take things personally, we've largely debated the subject of rape, not each other on this forum. And remember, we are only discussing rape at all because it has come in to the territory of football.

We can agree to disagree. I think we're all mature enough to do that and perhaps accept that in the heat of the moment and on a passionate subject some things got said which have caused some offence. Its an emotive subject though, so you could also say that perhaps that was always going to happen.

I think we can get on amicably and forget this fallout? The forum has been going well up until this. Please lets shake hands and move on

 

[splutcho]

I'm certainly happy to move on. I would say, try not to take too much offence, we are debating probably one of the most emotive subjects about, so things will end up being said in anger etc.

Also, I don't think BYAG is refusing to comment, he's just really not on here very much.

 

[crabbycanary]

Agreed, locking this thread is not the way to go, imo

My 'take' on this is to want to see it from the other side, to the poster's opinions on Evans perceived innocence.

I am not privy to all the information that was presented to the Courts, and am willing to (have to) believe that the Judicial system has come to the correct conclusion

I try and see it from the girl's, and also her families, point of view.

Toxic is a very apt word, and have stated elsewhere Football's arrogance, and why would Sheff Utd agree to this request, and let him train?

Why didn't the PFA ask other Clubs to let him train? Just because it was his last Club and they thought that would dilute any vitriol?

Has Evans said anything to Sheff Utd about the 'names' wanting to pullout?     

 

[Canaryboy]

I'm certainly happy to move on. I would say, try not to take too much offence, we are debating probably one of the most emotive subjects about, so things will end up being said in anger etc.

Agreed, won't get many subjects as sensitive as this one and we've done well to go four or five months without a major dispute, plus the very first words in this thread are: "This will be a highly contentious and/or emotive subject".

So its not like I should be surprised that it went a bit wrong 

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

Soooooo, how does everyone feel about euthanasia??

*Joke*  h34r:

 

[Lake District Canary]

Whether innocent or guilty, Evans has to live with himself and any ribbing he gets from fans if he rejoins the football circus.   Some say he's guilty and thats it - because the court said so - others say he could be innocent - even though he has been incredibly stupid.   None of us can really say for sure - only Evans knows.   He claims innocence and he is entitled to claim that.  I don't know what he's said, but if he came out and said "I've been very stupid and have only myself to blame for this predicament, but it wasn't rape", I would have more time for him.   Just to claim innocence is not enough because he behaved like an absolute idiot - and he should at least admit to being guilty of that. 

 

[Gaffer]

He admitting to stirring his mate's porridge with his own tongue. Isn't that bad enough?

 

[splutcho]

No, admitting to raping a girl would be better.

 

[Lake District Canary]

No, admitting to raping a girl would be better.

Not if he didn't.........

It all stems from the question "how drunk is drunk?"  And it begs the second question - how is a bloke to know what level of drunkenness a girl is?   We all know people who can be off their heads and still walk and talk coherently - and the opposite of course, some people can be falling over after three or four drinks.   So judging the level of a girl's drunkeness can be guesswork at best.    You get off with a girl at a party, she invites you home and after a few drinks things go further.  One or other might regret it in the morning and rape has been called in those situations before, but its hard to prove either way.        

The only certainty is that Evans joined in to this particular debacle at some stage and thought it ok to dip his wick - presumably and according to him - because the girl  was ok with it, drunk or not - and as I said, the level of drunkeness is an area that is difficult for anyone to see with any accuracy unless they were there.   I'm not making moral judgements, but a girl who allows herself to be picked up by a strange man and go almost straight to a hotel with him is not particularly doing herself any favours in the scheme of things.   She's entitled to do it if she wants, but is no innocent young thing and she walked unaided into the hotel, no sign of drunkeness there.   

Evans is a twit of the highest order to getting involved at all, but rape was called by the police and then it had to take it's course.   The girl I believe has had to have a new identity etc etc?    Maybe, she would have been better putting it down to experience, realising she had been stupid in going to a hotel in the first place with someone she didn't know.............or if she was too drunk and didn't know, why was the other guy found innocent?  

The whole court thing is based on moral judgements and the fact that that Evans was the second guy to "have a go" seems morally repugnant on one level - but only he knows the circumstances......... and he says he is innocent........and if the girl was too drunk to know what she was doing, then it was rape - and the other guy must have been guilty too.

 

[crabbycanary]

So we have the British Judicial system and process, saying he is guilty, and we have Ched Evans saying he isn't.

There is a small chance that an appeal will find him not guilty. I am basing my opinions on the current facts (i.e. he is guilty and served a sentence for that) How did his appeal process go over the last 2 and a half years (genuine question)?

I am sure he has been, at the very least if his appeal is successful, a complete tool, but I am not going to exhaust my self, trying to investigate internet 'facts', to see if he is guilty or not, as I (have to) trust the legal system. At this point he is guilty.

Another thing, is what on earth is his girlfriend STILL doing with him? She needs help

I liked Paul Heaton's line about Evans letting down Sheff Utd, yet they are allowing him back in their fold. I have mentioned it already, but the arrogance of Football still can make my eyes roll. Talking of which, anyone want to talk about Sepp Blatter and the World Cup bid report............?

 

[Canaryboy]

Don't want to be dragged back into prior arguments for obvious reasons. 

But can somebody tell me what the point in having all these minor celebrities as 'patrons' is? How many other 'patrons' have Sheffield United got exactly, and do we have any? It is usually not-for-profit organisations who have 'patrons' isn't it? 

 

[Canaryboy]

Oh, seems they have resigned as patrons of the Sheffield United Community Foundation, a separate entity and a registered charity. Because Sheffield United Football Club allowed Ched Evans to use fitness facilities. That seems counter intuitive to me, shame that they feel they have to deprive a local charity of their support. 

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

Ched Evans isnt the first footballer to have a criminal record. But I wonder if there have been any for whom such a fuss has been created. I mean Sheff Utd havent even re-signed him, he's just training. Marlon King I believe has a criminal record, Jermaine Pennant had to play with an ankle tag on. Lee Hughes killed a family through dangerous driving but was allowed to resume his career.

The bigger mystery for me is after two years of life in the slammer, how good can he actually be?! He's probably rubbish now

 

[hogesar]

Reckon he could cope with the physicality of League One, at the very least.

 

[hogesar]

I think that was supposed to be a prison-rape joke.

It didn't work - and isn't really appropriate either.

Moving on.