Seriously, I need some reassurance......

[eatonparkboy]

I actually feel optimistic, but that's probably because I didn't buy into the idea that we had a divine right to bounce back. We have a number of players whose attitudes are wrong and they've shown that under Adams, Phelan and Neil (Reading home, Reading away, Brentford home) so the hysterical reaction to Saturday in terms of making snap judgements on Neil is exactly that. Its easy to say Player X or Y would have done better than Whittaker because they didn't play so they can be as brilliant as a poster's fevered imaginations wants to make them.

Look at the choices to partner BJ. A 19 year old with 14 minutes Championship experience, a lightweight, one footed defensive liability, a winger who's one outing as a central midfielder (in a Capital Cup match) was disastrous or an experienced Scottish international who has played CM on a number of occasions for Rangers. It's hardly surprising that he went for Whittaker.

The squad needs to be rebuilt and that will take time, but it's being put on the backburner due to the obsession with bouncing back. If we don't go up this year the sun will still rise in the mornings and we'll have an exciting young manager with a clear vision free to build the team he wants, not try to flog some commitment out of a bunch of players with delusions of grandeur. Have you any idea how awful this squad would be in the Prem? We'd rival Derby for the lowest points total, even with a few million quids worth of reinforcements because this squad has no heart.

I accept much of what you have said there. I have never liked the Prem apart from 1992 when it started. And I don't like what happens there to the exclusion of football at every level in this country. It is always the quality of football that counts above all else, Or value for money to be honest. I watched a cracking game of football last night (Chelsea v Liverpool) but they only played that way because basically it was a one off.

What I do question about your post is that you call it hysteria about was was said about Saturday and hopefully the emotion that comes from watching football and particularly NCFC, is what causes reaction. And some reactions don't sit well with some people. That is fair enough. So what you are saying is being patient. But I don't understand why you necessarily suppose that we will have an exciting young manager with a clear vision. As you advise, let's be patient but let's not assume the new messiah has arrived. Yes the announcement was so left field for our board that it was exciting. But there is nothing to say yet that AN is.

 

[RhythmicTheory]

I pick up the odd thing that slips through the shroud of secrecy at Carrow Road. Anything that I can post I do, but some things have to stay out of the public domain. At present, there isn't much info to share as not much is happening!

Fair enough bud, thanks for sharing what you can.

 

[Beauseant]

Still can't quote, but in reply to eatonparkboy, I'm not saying the new messiah has arrived, just that its way to early to assume he hasn't. I like the way Neil talks about the game and I think he will shake up what has become a complacent dressing room. He may fail, but he inspires much more faith in me than Adams.

I think hysteria is appropriate because much of the reaction is exaggerated and based on non quantifiable facts, like assuming that we would have been better had Phelan stayed or that one game in which we ended up having to bypass midfield because we were overrun makes Neil a devotee of hoofball. I've read a lot of sense about Saturday, but also some abject nonsense.

 

[eatonparkboy]

Still can't quote, but in reply to eatonparkboy, I'm not saying the new messiah has arrived, just that its way to early to assume he hasn't. I like the way Neil talks about the game and I think he will shake up what has become a complacent dressing room. He may fail, but he inspires much more faith in me than Adams.

I think hysteria is appropriate because much of the reaction is exaggerated and based on non quantifiable facts, like assuming that we would have been better had Phelan stayed or that one game in which we ended up having to bypass midfield because we were overrun makes Neil a devotee of hoofball. I've read a lot of sense about Saturday, but also some abject nonsense.

I think hysteria is for the Pink Un. I think there is a lot of researched and reasoned argument on this site. Maybe the emotions of the day would be better served by all of us if they were mixed with a good nights sleep. But that is the beauty of football. It is spontaneous.

 

[Yellow Fever]

I don't think anybody is being hysterical about Neil, particularly. What I question is the wisdom of the change at this time if, as it looks Adams was pushed into resigning. The loss of Phelan leaves us very short of expereince, which the addition of McAvoy does little to resolve. As a result, I don't find Neil 'exciting', except in the context of being a huge gamble. Anything could happen from here.

 

[morty]

Has it really got to do with points only? The football served up by AN for the last three halves has been nothing short of awful. It has nothing to do with panic buttons. Taking one game at a time, AN is worse than NA. Win the next two or three with good football and he will be better.

Well thats ultimately how things are quantified, isn't it?

However much people might say they want attractive football, what they really want is effective and successful football.

Would you really stick your bottom lip out if we clogged our way out of this division?

 

[Dandy Mountfarto]

Well thats ultimately how things are quantified, isn't it?

However much people might say they want attractive football, what they really want is effective and successful football.

Would you really stick your bottom lip out if we clogged our way out of this division?

This isn't neccessarily true. I was bored witless watching Hughton's team and it has made me completely reassess why I watch football.

I was perfectly happy watching Adams team and would have been fine with us staying in this division playing that style of football. 'Successful' football for a club of our size means turning into what Sunderland and Villa have become, do you want that?

I think if the Lambert and Hughton years have taught us anything, it is that the how is as least as important than the what and where, more so in my opinion.

 

[morty]

This isn't neccessarily true. I was bored witless watching Hughton's team and it has made me completely reassess why I watch football.

I was perfectly happy watching Adams team and would have been fine with us staying in this division playing that style of football. 'Successful' football for a club of our size means turning into what Sunderland and Villa have become, do you want that?

I think if the Lambert and Hughton years have taught us anything, it is that the how is as least as important than the what and where, more so in my opinion.

Some people are so hung up on getting out of this division, I suspect they would accept it at any cost.

 

[eatonparkboy]

Well thats ultimately how things are quantified, isn't it?

However much people might say they want attractive football, what they really want is effective and successful football.

Would you really stick your bottom lip out if we clogged our way out of this division?

To be honest, I would. That doesn't make me right or the Guardian of Pure Football. It is just a preference. I believe that attractive entertaining football will rise to the top eventually. I know two Hammers supporters who still want Allardyce out. They don't like him or trust him. Its purely down to the individual.

 

[morty]

To be honest, I would. That doesn't make me right or the Guardian of Pure Football. It is just a preference. I believe that attractive entertaining football will rise to the top eventually. I know two Hammers supporters who still want Allardyce out. They don't like him or trust him. Its purely down to the individual.

Of course, in an ideal world, we would all love beautiful football, but this isn't an ideal world, and this isn't a settled club right now.

Considering what has gone on at the club over the last few years, we are actually not in bad nick, it could be a lot, lot worse.

Would West Ham fans swap being in the Premiership for football that is pleasing on the eye? I suspect not.

People are just going to have to give Alex Neil time to mould the side into what he wants it to be, and if that means missing out on promotion while he does it, then people are just going to have to accept that. Given an option, going back to my original point, would I be happy to clog our way out of this division and be 80 million quid a year better off while he assembles his team? Damn right I would.

 

[eatonparkboy]

Of course, in an ideal world, we would all love beautiful football, but this isn't an ideal world, and this isn't a settled club right now.

Considering what has gone on at the club over the last few years, we are actually not in bad nick, it could be a lot, lot worse.

Would West Ham fans swap being in the Premiership for football that is pleasing on the eye? I suspect not.

People are just going to have to give Alex Neil time to mould the side into what he wants it to be, and if that means missing out on promotion while he does it, then people are just going to have to accept that. Given an option, going back to my original point, would I be happy to clog our way out of this division and be 80 million quid a year better off while he assembles his team? Damn right I would.

To be honest, I have heard that phrase so many times and see it as an excuse. It doesn't have to be beautiful, just entertaining and value for money. And just in the same way as people, in general, stop going to football if their team is unsuccessful, they stop going if the football is not entertaining.

But of course, many do just want success and good luck to them. It is what you get out of a game on a Saturday that counts.

 

[morty]

To be honest, I have heard that phrase so many times and see it as an excuse. It doesn't have to be beautiful, just entertaining and value for money. And just in the same way as people, in general, stop going to football if their team is unsuccessful, they stop going if the football is not entertaining.

But of course, many do just want success and good luck to them. It is what you get out of a game on a Saturday that counts.

I am very much of the opinion that there is no point getting wound up about something that, essentially, you have no control over. Even the most successful teams lose, its part of the game.

But I really don't understand people carry on going to football, despite appearing to not be enjoying it. Personally I get a lot, lot more out of the football experience than just the 90 minutes. And if I truly didn't enjoy going, then I would stop going, rather than just endlessly whinge about it, like some folks prefer to do.

 

[Beauseant]

Watching a game of football isn't like looking at a piece of art. Ultimately it isn't some sort of intellectual experience, it appeals to the primeval, tribal hunter gatherer in all of us, however sophisticated we might consider ourselves to be, or at least it did until the ongoing sanitisation of the game took it further from its roots as a working class game and into the preserve of the prawn sandwich brigade.

 

[Yellow Fever]

To me, it's not hysteria, but uncertainty of just not knowing hat Neil will achieve. Some are impressed by his record in Scotland, others are not. There, he was 'one of the guys' who had come up through the ranks. Here he is a 33 year old who last played in England 10 years ago. He is now managing a side full of players who played in the PL and the early signs are mixed, but it's hardly surprising that people are angry about the way we played against Brentford. The football doesn't have to be beautiful, but it does need to be effective.

 

[eatonparkboy]

I am very much of the opinion that there is no point getting wound up about something that, essentially, you have no control over. Even the most successful teams lose, its part of the game.

But I really don't understand people carry on going to football, despite appearing to not be enjoying it. Personally I get a lot, lot more out of the football experience than just the 90 minutes. And if I truly didn't enjoy going, then I would stop going, rather than just endlessly whinge about it, like some folks prefer to do.

I started going in 1960, Dad said 1959 was too dangerous because of crowd size, and I used to stand at the River End for no other reason than I walked down King Street and it was the nearest stand.

And it was the same characters, stood in the same spot, in the same hat and coat, puffing on Woodbines, game after game. And at the end of a match that we may have lost or even drawn and sometimes even when we had won, as people shuffled slowly along the terrace to the exit, a very garbled tannoy announcement would inform us all of the next home match. And tens even hundreds of souls would laugh and declare, "I sharrrn't be a cumming if es more troipe like t'day!. Our got betta things to  be a durn"

Next home match, the same people would be in the same spot, in the same hat and coat, puffing on Woodbines. And I loved those guys. Salt of the earth and what they said during and after the match was quite amusing and harmless.

So nothing has changed in terms of peoples perspective and needs from football. Moan, groan even swear but it didn't stop those guys swallowing what they had said previously (although they would regurgitate it again after another dire performance) and paying their hard earned money to watch the team they really loved.

I agree with Beausant about the sanitisation by the prawn sandwich brigade. I wonder how long before football becomes the exclusivity of the well heeled rather than any football lover.

I don't know people's circumstances but a season ticket must be something many have to budget for whereas you just went all those years ago.

 

[morty]

I think subtle things have changed though Eaton. There is much more of a sense of entitlement from fans it seems, whether that is a reflection on just football, or society as a whole, is a matter for further debate.

Or perhaps there are just more outlets, such as internet forums, for them to moan, and find like minded others, who knows.

Football is just one of many things people can choose to spend their disposable income on, and those choices are their own. Like I said, I really don't understand the mentality of someone going through the masochistic process of watching, and paying for, something they profess to get no enjoyment from.

To get all biblical, " If thine right eye offends thee, pluck it out" 

 

[Fenway Frank]

Morty, in the interest of equality you now have to quote from the Koran too

 

[Canaryboy]

Watching a game of football isn't like looking at a piece of art. Ultimately it isn't some sort of intellectual experience, it appeals to the primeval, tribal hunter gatherer in all of us, however sophisticated we might consider ourselves to be, or at least it did until the ongoing sanitisation of the game took it further from its roots as a working class game and into the preserve of the prawn sandwich brigade.

Plus that tika-taka stuff that Swansea were churning out a few years ago was seen as beautiful by the purists, it bored the pants off of me. Thankfully Norwich were one of the teams who could go to their place and stop them playing that game, we had them well and truly sussed.

 

[morty]

Morty, in the interest of equality you now have to quote from the Koran too

You missed out the "eye" from the bible quote

Fixed 

 

[Yellow Fever]

In the Koran, the Biblical 'manna from heaven' was actually a sticky, honey like substance secreted by desert shrubs to fight off bacterial infection. One man's miracle is another man's 'sticky substance'. Maybe we shouldn't hold out for miracles after all!