The trouble with Norwich...

[morty]

This is a condensed transcript of a long, rambling disection in the pub after the game yesterday!

We are all bemoaning lack of signings, especially in the defensive department, if reports are to be believed we bid some fairly serious money, but didn't land the targets, which provokes a few wider questions.

Do we suffer from an image problem? What is the wider public's perception of Norwich City? Are we just short term visitors to the Premiership in our funny yellow kit and our celebrity chef? Are we viewed as "small time"?

Have we overplayed the "Poor Norwich, we don't have much money" making players not want to come here? Is it just the money thats the issue? Sides like Stoke and Leicester seem to attract the quality of players that we struggle with, despite both places being *bleep* holes, so is it really just all about the money then?

Now, I know that we are shackled by the fact our owners are relatively poor, but are they really starting to hold us back? Is there really nobody out there who wants to invest in a great football club such as ours? I see from the released accounts that we are debt free, which is nice, really great. And I know its all too easy to spend someone elses money, but would it have been the end of the world to borrow 5 or 10 million to push the boat out a bit on wages and transfers in the summer? Worst case is we go down fighting, and flog the players we bought, and pay off the loan.

Its commendable that we aspire to be a well run club, but I am starting to wonder if we're just being a little too prudent. I am not questioning Delia and Michael's commitment, but am wondering, as they come closer to retirement if they are becoming too concerned with leaving a lasting legacy at Norwich City, and less concerned with immediate Premiership survival.

 

[Wiz]

I've been anti Smith and Jones since day 1 morty, they hold the club back imo, its time we were shot of them.

And that's all I'll say on the matter.

 

[Canaryboy]

I think financial prudence (or lack of risk taking) is a huge part of the issue, yes. I'll bore myself using this exact same example again, but could you imagine McNally giving £4m in wages to Berbatov for a year? Or would he be against that because he doesn't fit a specific profile (age) got no resale value? 

Leicester took a punt on Cambiasso on a one year deal. In hindsight they'd have wished they had given him a two year deal, but in that year he probably kept them up. They gave him around £4m in wages but he was an off-the-shelf talisman. Surely simply signing a living legend raises your profile, and signing players in their twilight years is a more realistic way of injecting some genuine quality. 

What is the risk in making a signing like a Berbatov or a Drogba, if its a one year deal? If you go back down you release them, if you stay up you probably release them too, but I sense that at current our club would not try and make a signing like this. 

Demba Ba is playing in China right now. He won't want to be playing in China, he just wants the £100k a week, nothing to do with an image problem or our geography, I bet if Demba Ba had £100k on the table from any Premier League side this summer he'd have taken it. 

It's money, its all about the money. 

 

[morty]

I've been anti Smith and Jones since day 1 morty, they hold the club back imo, its time we were shot of them.

And that's all I'll say on the matter.

I think thats more than a little silly, and it sounds more like a personal issue, rather than being based on anything tangible. We are in the Premiership for the 4th year in 5, Smith and Jones have "presided" over a very, very succesful period in Norwich City's history, and this isn't a torch waving thread asking for their replacement.

But we need a change of direction in how we are doing things, success and ambition breeds success.

Someone made the point to me in the pub last night ( and this isn't a dig at Alex) why didn't we get someone like Ranieri, or even big Sam? I know being a name isn't the be all and end all, but as a for instance in the effect it can have, do you think that Cabaye would have even entertained going to Crystal Palace, if Pardew hadn't been there?

Yes, as Canaryboy says, its primarily money, but I also think that our club has an image problem.

 

[Canaryboy]

The sale of Bradley Johnson still feels odd to me. 

I know that £6m is a great price for him, but we were still a Premier League side selling our player of the season to a team in the division below. 

It felt like an odd time to sell him. Probably explained by a falling out or something, but its not normal for a team to be promoted and then dispose of a first team regular in the first transfer window. 

 

[Wiz]

I think thats more than a little silly, and it sounds more like a personal issue, rather than being based on anything tangible. We are in the Premiership for the 4th year in 5, Smith and Jones have "presided" over a very, very succesful period in Norwich City's history, and this isn't a torch waving thread asking for their replacement.

But we need a change of direction in how we are doing things, success and ambition breeds success.

Someone made the point to me in the pub last night ( and this isn't a dig at Alex) why didn't we get someone like Ranieri, or even big Sam? I know being a name isn't the be all and end all, but as a for instance in the effect it can have, do you think that Cabaye would have even entertained going to Crystal Palace, if Pardew hadn't been there?

Yes, as Canaryboy says, its primarily money, but I also think that our club has an image

It is a personal issue morty, but lets leave it like that.

 

[Canaryboy]

I've been anti Smith and Jones since day 1 morty, they hold the club back imo, its time we were shot of them.

And that's all I'll say on the matter.

We could do a lot worse than Smith and Jones. Look at the numerous foreign owners who buy clubs and don't understand our culture or try and impose theirs, like the Cardiff owner changing the team colours, or the Hull owner trying to change the name of the club, or the ones who are decent people with the required money but just clueless about the industry and get fleeced by people who are in it for the money (Tony Fernandes finally waking up, after three or four years as an agents wet dream). 

 

[morty]

Little Old Norwich eh?...............and who invented that millstone phrase?

You're not really bringing much to the debate here, but I'll entertain you. The "little old Norwich" is as much to do with the attitude of the fans, in previous years, than it has with Delia and Michael.

And I'd hardly call it a millstone, if I'm honest.

 

[Baggie192]

I think thats more than a little silly, and it sounds more like a personal issue, rather than being based on anything tangible. We are in the Premiership for the 4th year in 5, Smith and Jones have "presided" over a very, very succesful period in Norwich City's history, and this isn't a torch waving thread asking for their replacement.

But we need a change of direction in how we are doing things, success and ambition breeds success.

Someone made the point to me in the pub last night ( and this isn't a dig at Alex) why didn't we get someone like Ranieri, or even big Sam? I know being a name isn't the be all and end all, but as a for instance in the effect it can have, do you think that Cabaye would have even entertained going to Crystal Palace, if Pardew hadn't been there?

Yes, as Canaryboy says, its primarily money, but I also think that our club has an image problem.

I don't think you have an image problem. Look at us within 13 miles There's us, Wo1ve5, Aston Villa, Birmingham City and Walsall. Until recently 4 of the 5 are regularly in the prem. Pulis has been given the largest budget in our club's history. Aston Villa are the largest team in the area. But, we out signed them fo a couple of players (Evans and Fletcher) Sadly you have to willing pay now

 

[morty]

I don't think you have an image problem. Look at us within 13 miles There's us, Wo1ve5, Aston Villa, Birmingham City and Walsall. Until recently 4 of the 5 are regularly in the prem. Pulis has been given the largest budget in our club's history. Aston Villa are the largest team in the area. But, we out signed them fo a couple of players (Evans and Fletcher) Sadly you have to willing pay now

This ties back into what we're saying in the other thread, about the longevity of your stay in the Premiership. If you have the money to splash, image or location become irrelevent.

 

[Dubai Mark]

Its not one specific thing, but a mix of many reasons why we don't appear to be an attractive club when compared to others, and why we cannot "yet" push the boat out like some other "similar" clubs.

The facts are always worth going through when trying to understand where we are as a club....

- not so long ago the club nearly went into administration with huge debt

- the club's owners are the least rich of any EPL club (yes, including West Brom and several Champs clubs)

- gate receipts do not generate enough cash,  particularly when considering the high percentage if season ticket holders

- the club needs more seasons in the EPL to build up its general wealth and stability

- the above points means that some care must be given when spending money

In addition,  of course it will be harder to sell our club to players when compared to most other EPL clubs,  most of whom have a proper international airport (with direct flights to major destinations and no tinpot development fee, I jest on that point) within a decent distance,  a motorway system linking them to the rest of the country or close by more glamorous cities where their WAG will be happy to hang out. Norwich is a great place, but on my travels when anyone who is not from the UK asks me where I am from, and say Norwich,  I get a blank look and even have to explain where it is geographically,  and that then turns their interest off. These same points would also deter an investor, as would the relevantly modest ultimate potential of the club. 

To not have the usual signing battle, where we appear to be lucky if we sign one in ten of our targets,  will take a huge shift in the club's finances, and I would suggest that until that happens we are in good hands when it comes to David McNally. 

That said,  there is no doubt that if we had a big name manager like a Big Sam or even Pullis, our chances of signing more established EPL players would increase, if that there is no doubt,  well better than Androu anyway. 

One final thing......Wiz, just because Delia's scone recipe doesn't work is no reason to bear such a grudge! 

 

[Lavanche]

It is not reputation and it isn't all about money either. With money you can of course sign anyone at the end, but there is so much players that cant get the salary we could offer and that would dream about playing even in a championship not to mention premier league.

It is about the risks, scouting and ambition and that is something we lack a bit. If our shortlist was only 3 to 4 players for CB position we really didn't look further than our nose.

And as I said in preseason if we cant find starters we should be looking potential young challengers and take a leap of faith with them. It is kind a sad to see that we have almost zero under 25 players in our rotation who could develope to be something more.

So I wouldnt blame neither lack of money, nor our reputation, but our attitude in tranfermarket.

Also we seem to avoid signing profilic players. Who could attract more attention from agents to offer their players to us instead of us chasing them all around the world. At least when I still played in Finland it has huge effect when we signed a bit more known player we got two good talents as we had shown ambition.

 

[Canaryboy]

In addition,  of course it will be harder to sell our club to players when compared to most other EPL clubs,  most of whom have a proper international airport (with direct flights to major destinations and no tinpot development fee, I jest on that point) within a decent distance,  a motorway system linking them to the rest of the country or close by more glamorous cities where their WAG will be happy to hang out. Norwich is a great place, but on my travels when anyone who is not from the UK asks me where I am from, and say Norwich,  I get a blank look and even have to explain where it is geographically,  and that then turns their interest off. These same points would also deter an investor, as would tge relevantly modest ultimate potential if the club. 

The problem with this argument is that being in the arse-end of nowhere in an unfashionable city hasn't deterred England internationals like Jonjo Shelvey or French internationals like Bafetimbi Gomis joining Swansea, or even managers like Michael Laudrup. They've managed to win a League Cup and play in Europe too, all without the rich sugar daddy and with a smaller ground capacity (just 20845). They done it because they've just continued to make good decisions, more good ones than bad ones. 

One such good decision was signing Wilfried Bony for £12m, whilst we signed RVW and Hooper for £14m, clearly they got one player that was good enough for this league whilst we got two who were not. The difference between us and Swansea is decisions made at a board level, and by managers, and possibly a small degree of luck too (although mostly decisions). People say that Swansea got "lucky" with Michu, who they signed for just £2m, but there is nothing "lucky" about identifying a player that you like and then finding out you can sign that player who has just had a 15 goal season in La Liga for £2m, you have to find the player and make the phone call. You create your own luck, as they say. 

 

[morty]

It is not reputation and it isn't all about money either. With money you can of course sign anyone at the end, but there is so much players that cant get the salary we could offer and that would dream about playing even in a championship not to mention premier league.

It is about the risks, scouting and ambition and that is something we lack a bit. If our shortlist was only 3 to 4 players for CB position we really didn't look further than our nose.

And as I said in preseason if we cant find starters we should be looking potential young challengers and take a leap of faith with them. It is kind a sad to see that we have almost zero under 25 players in our rotation who could develope to be something more.

So I wouldnt blame neither lack of money, nor our reputation, but our attitude in tranfermarket.

Also we seem to avoid signing profilic players. Who could attract more attention from agents to offer their players to us instead of us chasing them all around the world. At least when I still played in Finland it has huge effect when we signed a bit more known player we got two good talents as we had shown ambition.

Our attitude that we want something for nothing, or want to pay as little as possible.

The Brady transfer saga was embarrassing.

 

[Canaryboy]

I will add to this debate that Alex Neil has probably suffered a little as a result of poor spending by Neil Adams (example of some poor decision making, my reason for Swansea achieving more than us). With £13m in transfer fees spent (I've subtracted £1m for Andreu) you'd expect to come out of that with more than one first team regular, considering it was necessary to replace two or three of them that season, Cameron Jerome is all he has to show for that £13m really. 

 

[Dubai Mark]

For every "Swansea" (again not poor owners) there are several "failures" of club's of similar size or bigger than Norwich City,.....for example Bolton, Blackburn, Wolves, Sheffield Wednesday, The Scum, QPR, and there are more. On that basis, on balance our club is doing fine despite this tough period we are going through, So, lets try and celebrate that, rather than go on a downwards spiral of negativity that will spoil a season that has only really just begun....it is hard I know, because we all care, but bigger picture when casting our minds back to 1-7 then a hell of a lot of progress has been made!!  

 

[morty]

For every "Swansea" (again not poor owners) there are several "failures" of club's of similar size or bigger than Norwich City,.....for example Bolton, Blackburn, Wolves, Sheffield Wednesday, The Scum, QPR, and there are more. On that basis, on balance our club is doing fine despite this tough period we are going through, So, lets try and celebrate that, rather than go on a downwards spiral of negativity that will spoil a season that has only really just begun....it is hard I know, because we all care, but bigger picture when casting our minds back to 1-7 then a hell of a lot of progress has been made!!  

The thread wasn't neccessarily meant to be negative, but it has become apparent that sometimes we are just a bit too cautious, money wise. Imagine two or three more decent quality players in the squad right now and being top ten.

Because that is what we should be aiming for, not scrapping against relegation every season.

 

[eatonparkboy]

As galling as it is to lose, and no disrespect to WBA or Pulis, but to teams you would expect to beat at home, I think we have to temper our thoughts on NCFC and its place in the football hierarchy.

Our club is respected throughput the globe for what it is. Only yesterday I was speaking to a Watford supporter who was eulogising about us. Not about how good we were on the pitch at the moment or how good a manager or owners we have but as the package that is Canary. He spoke of loyalty of supporters not only in attending matches but in defending the club in pubs etc after a defeat or worse.

Thirty years ago, I would have said so what. We are a top club and should be in the top 15 minimum every season. We have the talent to do it. But since the EU and Bosman, that changed.

When I reflect about our place in today's game then I think we are about where we belong. Not really good enough for the Prem and mostly too good for the Championship. And if you compare us to other clubs, we do have excitement in abundance. No staying in the same league year after year. Fiddler's elbow is an apt term. And as much as it hurts being relegated, it does bring its own excitement.

If you have supported NCFC for a very long time, you will be aware of the times we have financial crises. Not only the fear of insolvency, which has happened at least twice in a big way but having to sell players purely to build new stands or pay tax bills.

Many supporters, rightfully so in their opinion, believe we should gamble. Go for the marquee signings and bring in a name foreign coach. Many others believe that would be too much of a financial risk because in reality, we are doing reasonably well and satisfying their aspirations,

Personally. living in Cornwall and unable to go to any matches apart from the odd away game, I probably don't have a valid opinion but do retain the right, through birthright and many, many years of watching, home and away, to make an observation.

But I cannot see what all the fuss is about. We have a prudent board, a young and naive coaching staff without the hootzpah or reputation and a majority of supporters (based on the fact there is a waiting list for season tickets) who are happy enough with the product.

Where I side with the movers and shakers to a certain degree is each match as it happens. Each game, virtually all the players should be fit and on form and the manager sends them out with the attitude and tactics to try and entertain and hopefully achieve some sort of result. If this isn't attempted or achieved on a regular basis, then criticism is more than warranted.

It is quite easy for people to look and Smith and Jones and demean their achievements. And to wish for some foreign potentate or oligarch to come in and run the club, not how the supporters want but how he or she wants. But for the last 19 years they have been at the harness and that is a kind of dynasty in football terms. Their handling of the Cullum debacle was exemplary in my opinion.

If winning things is all people go to football for then, stereotypically, get a Cockney accent and pick a big club. If you support Norwich for the right reasons, then continuing support is not in question. You are entitled to moan and groan, and quite frankly I have never objected to booing at a lacklustre performance, but to expect any more than that being strived for at the moment, is too much to expect in my opinion.

 

[Dubai Mark]

Morty, my "negative" comment was not really aimed at this thread must stress, as per usual we have a good reasoned debate on here!! I too feel that we are a bit cautious and could take just a bit more risk

 

[Dubai Mark]

eatonparkboy - that has to be one of THE best posts on this board since its inception !!