The trouble with Norwich...

[Canaryboy]

Love this thread, love this board!  Just had to say that again,  its so refreshing to read this board......we just need more contributors!

We could do with a few more, yes. Where has The Great Mass Debator gone? He was our most prolific conversation starter! 

 

[Killiecanary]

A very interesting thread...and one that reflects my own thoughts between 3pm on Saturday and now...

Saturday was disappointing - second half especially, and it followed of course 2 other disappointments, so of course we all start to question, and for me the evolution of the questions were kind of like this...

Why don't we look good enough?

Our players must not be up to it?

why didn't we buy better ones then?

we thought we did...is the manager up to it?

or was he stopped from getting his targets?

should we have been willing to speculate to accumulate?  Have we been too cautious?  Is the board too tight?

And then rationality kicks in and I find myself in absolute agreement with the majority of contributors above.  We do need to be sensible - it isn't just the forking out £10 million on a star player Morty...it's the being saddled with crazy wages for th next few years regardless of which dividing we are in (RVW wages are just a minor example of what can happen...for more extreme examples see Leeds, Sheff Wed....even Ipshit) 

Staying up is obviously the only priority this season...and for that we need to keep three teams below us.  I hope to see more quality defenders arrive in January which should help.  

Finally, we have very little difficulty creating and scoring in this division so far (Saturday notwithstanding) remember last time?  We played to nick every game 1-0 - this time round it is much much better than that final season under CH, I just need to keep the faith!

 

[Canaryboy]

Its true that we need to live within our means, the same is true of any club, and our focus needs to be on getting as much as we can out of the budget we have. Our club has punched above our weight in the past. The club we really need to look up to I think is Swansea, they just get transfers spot on. Potentially one of the signings of the season in Ayew I think, on a free transfer. They signed Jonjo Shelvey for £5m, he's a mint player. Kyle Naughton for £5m, they'll get 5 years out of him.

They don't seem to end up with any deadwood stuck on the payroll, Michu is the exception but they got their money's worth in the first year alone. 

 

[eatonparkboy]

Its true that we need to live within our means, the same is true of any club, and our focus needs to be on getting as much as we can out of the budget we have. Our club has punched above our weight in the past. The club we really need to look up to I think is Swansea, they just get transfers spot on. Potentially one of the signings of the season in Ayew I think, on a free transfer. They signed Jonjo Shelvey for £5m, he's a mint player. Kyle Naughton for £5m, they'll get 5 years out of him.

They don't seem to end up with any deadwood stuck on the payroll, Michu is the exception but they got their money's worth in the first year alone. 

Swansea are indeed to be commended. And they are not dissimilar to us in terms of their owners. However, they are still part of the vulnerable group of clubs that just need one bad season and could be in trouble. In a slightly different climate ownership wise, Charlton were very much the same. Restored the Valley, had exciting players and a young manager who had emerged after a daft period of two managers. But the inevitable happened and they haven't fully recovered. Maybe, unlike us, who can keep bouncing back, they don't have the infrastructure and demography to come again with any lasting or real hope.

Leicester are another. No matter how much the fee, if Vardy goes in January, they will find it a lot tougher. To be honest I only think six teams are invulnerable in the Prem. Some will always be OK but at times will be looking up rather than down at the rest.

 

[Personal Trainer]

I think it is the case that the Council built the Liberty Stadium because it wanted the old Vetch Field and therefore they have never been saddled with the huge re-development costs (Jarrold Stand and in-fills) City had. 

 

[Canaryboy]

I think it is the case that the Council built the Liberty Stadium because it wanted the old Vetch Field and therefore they have never been saddled with the huge re-development costs (Jarrold Stand and in-fills) City had. 

I don't know how much of an advantage that has given them, depends how much rent they have to pay, but we became free of external debt a couple of years ago so one would assume that their lease sees them pay more rent that we do in a mortgage free stadium. 

A little known fact is that the stadium is called the 'Liberty Stadium' because it is sponsored by a company named 'Liberty Properties PLC', they do have the risk that when that sponsorship deal ends they'll end up with the stadium having a less acceptable name as it will be the stadium owners who presumably get to put that out to tender. 

 

[Wiz]

Oh come on now you are trolling, surely?

NO,  I'm not trolling.

The last person I want at our club is ruddy Sherwood, I only added his and Rodgers name to the list of unemployed managers.

Be fair Splutcho.

 

[gerryinromania]

Good thoughtful thread, reading it all back again, I really enjoyed Eatons supermarket theme. When you really think about it, different clubs can be put in the slots. I think that we are the club with the list. It got blown away a couple of years ago, but now we have one on a heavy slateboard. Unfortunately the supermarket ran dry of some of the products, and we didn't know where else to shop. Hoping the new list is well under way,with several places to shop

 

[Yellow Fever]

Just what constitutes ambition? Was it signing international stars like RvW, which almost everyone raved about at the time and have moaned about since? AN said when he came to CR that he wanted to develop a dynasty. He has a clear idea of how he wants the game to be played and has recruited players who were right for doing that to strengthen the squad already here. He also let Johnson move on for £6m or so, because he didn't really fit that plan, even after being PotS last year.

I think he did well in the transfer window, bringing in players who suited his approach and we still have yet to see what impact those players will have over the season as a whole. Yes, he failed to bring in a quality CB, but as he said, he didn't want just cover, he wanted quality, and if he couldn't get that he'd wait until he could. This season was always going to be tough for all concerned and now that we've hit a sticky patch people express their concerns. That's natural, but it hasn't deflected AN from what he is building here. Much of that depends on survival to be sure and the next month will be a huge test of that, as it will for the teams around or below us. If it wasn't for AN we wouldn't be in the PL at all and for that reason he deserves the chance to see it out. The worst that can happen is that we end up where we'd be now if he hadn't come here in the first place.

 

[eatonparkboy]

Just what constitutes ambition? Was it signing international stars like RvW, which almost everyone raved about at the time and have moaned about since? AN said when he came to CR that he wanted to develop a dynasty. He has a clear idea of how he wants the game to be played and has recruited players who were right for doing that to strengthen the squad already here. He also let Johnson move on for £6m or so, because he didn't really fit that plan, even after being PotS last year.

I think he did well in the transfer window, bringing in players who suited his approach and we still have yet to see what impact those players will have over the season as a whole. Yes, he failed to bring in a quality CB, but as he said, he didn't want just cover, he wanted quality, and if he couldn't get that he'd wait until he could. This season was always going to be tough for all concerned and now that we've hit a sticky patch people express their concerns. That's natural, but it hasn't deflected AN from what he is building here. Much of that depends on survival to be sure and the next month will be a huge test of that, as it will for the teams around or below us. If it wasn't for AN we wouldn't be in the PL at all and for that reason he deserves the chance to see it out. The worst that can happen is that we end up where we'd be now if he hadn't come here in the first place.

I agree with much of what you say but differ on the aspect of recruitment. I am not convinced that AN got anywhere near what he wanted. And because of his lack of experience in the transfer market, I think we have tertiary targets instead. I don't believe for one minute that 3 loans, two frees and Brady is what he wanted. The farce with Walters and the refusal to admit that, like it or not, you have to hand over massive sums for no more than ordinary players meant that he along with Gayle and Afobe didn't join.

That isn't saying it was his fault but that was what the original post was about. Not blaming anyone in particular but the systemic belief at NCFC that we are doing OK. And is that belief correct or valid anymore? Personally I get depressed after reversals but overall still think we are probably doing the right things..

 

[Canaryboy]

The last person I want at our club is ruddy Sherwood

I'd he fine with him at the club, as the Under 8's coach. 

Is it Tim Sherwood who has spent years being embarrassed to admit he even played or us, or is that Andy Townsend? 

 

[Personal Trainer]

This has been a brilliant discussion with some of it's content especially summer player recruitment, worthy of raising at the NCFC AGM in November. I for one would love to know if all those players we were rumoured to be after were indeed true and also to know, if as stated on lesser sites, David McNally really is in charge of selecting signings.

 

[CanaryNath]

A super read and some well thought points put across 

 

[splutcho]

NO,  I'm not trolling.

The last person I want at our club is ruddy Sherwood, I only added his and Rodgers name to the list of unemployed managers.

Be fair Splutcho.

I was joking, it was more of a dig at Sherwood's managerial skills than your posting!

 

[It's Character Forming]

I agree with much of what you say but differ on the aspect of recruitment. I am not convinced that AN got anywhere near what he wanted. And because of his lack of experience in the transfer market, I think we have tertiary targets instead. I don't believe for one minute that 3 loans, two frees and Brady is what he wanted. The farce with Walters and the refusal to admit that, like it or not, you have to hand over massive sums for no more than ordinary players meant that he along with Gayle and Afobe didn't join.

That isn't saying it was his fault but that was what the original post was about. Not blaming anyone in particular but the systemic belief at NCFC that we are doing OK. And is that belief correct or valid anymore? Personally I get depressed after reversals but overall still think we are probably doing the right things..

This is my view too.  It sounds like Gayle and Walters were signings we could have got if we'd been willing to pay a realistic amount and had put the bid in a couple of days sooner.  Afobe is different, it would have required a very serious bid early on to shake him loose IMO and no guarantee even then, also that could have brought other bidders into the frame.  And for the CB position, again it seems to me there was a failure to identify this as a crucial area to get a player in, which meant that we pursued our first choice targets and didn't put in bids on backup options until it was too late.

Not sure how much of this is down to AN and how much to McNally, I'd guess it's a mix.

I think we are still suffering from the after effects of paying a record fee for RVW.  I think this has made McNally more cautious about splashing out a large transfer fee.  Also any foreign player we are looking to bring in as a big signing will probably check and find that RVW was our record signing who then flopped and has seen his career go down the pan.  So that must be a bit off-putting.  And signing a defender in January is going to be difficult given McNally being tight and transfer prices then being inflated.

As long as we can stay up, it will get easier to bring in higher profile signings, but that has risks of its own - viz Fer and Elmander.

 

[morty]

This is my view too.  It sounds like Gayle and Walters were signings we could have got if we'd been willing to pay a realistic amount and had put the bid in a couple of days sooner.  Afobe is different, it would have required a very serious bid early on to shake him loose IMO and no guarantee even then, also that could have brought other bidders into the frame.  And for the CB position, again it seems to me there was a failure to identify this as a crucial area to get a player in, which meant that we pursued our first choice targets and didn't put in bids on backup options until it was too late.

Not sure how much of this is down to AN and how much to McNally, I'd guess it's a mix.

I think we are still suffering from the after effects of paying a record fee for RVW.  I think this has made McNally more cautious about splashing out a large transfer fee.  Also any foreign player we are looking to bring in as a big signing will probably check and find that RVW was our record signing who then flopped and has seen his career go down the pan.  So that must be a bit off-putting.  And signing a defender in January is going to be difficult given McNally being tight and transfer prices then being inflated.

As long as we can stay up, it will get easier to bring in higher profile signings, but that has risks of its own - viz Fer and Elmander.

I agree that there will always be risks, and I don't want to get all "Ooh I wish we were Swansea" but if you research properly and make an appropriate bid, then it can reap rewards.

I can't remember the last time we scouted anyone that turned out to be a real bargain, or we made any real profit on, bar maybe Snodgrass? 

It does sound like our transfer window was complicated though, and something fell through last minute, Hooper was saying on twitter earlier that he was meant to go to Sheff Wed when Turner did, but the plug was pulled last minute, as we needed him. 

 

[Canaryboy]

I can't remember the last time we scouted anyone that turned out to be a real bargain, or we made any real profit on, bar maybe Snodgrass? 

Its not just finding bargains though, sometimes its clear that a fee is worth paying. I never understood why we sneered our nose up at Kyle Naughton for £6m when we had the chance at the end of his loan, he'd proven that season that he was Premier League quality and a good fit for us and therefore worth the fee. 

Since signed for Swansea for £5m, so what would we have lost, he was worth the asking price or close to it and shown it. Seems silly that we are prepared to gamble money on foreign players like RVW and Fer, but not pay money for a player who had proven his Premier League ability and his suitability to our club. 

 

[morty]

Its not just finding bargains though, sometimes its clear that a fee is worth paying. I never understood why we sneered our nose up at Kyle Naughton for £6m when we had the chance at the end of his loan, he'd proven that season that he was Premier League quality and a good fit for us and therefore worth the fee. 

Since signed for Swansea for £5m, so what would we have lost, he was worth the asking price or close to it. 

Which steers the thread quite neatly back to my OP. It is worth taking a risk, as long as it is calculated. Kyle Naughton being an excellent example.

 

[eatonparkboy]

Taking risks is all about limiting the chances of the risk outweighing the reward. And the example of Naughton, I believe is a good example. It involved less risk than reward. He had proved his ability in the division and at our club. And although I don't know players contracts, I assume 20K pw over three years, meaning after the irritating agents fees it would be heading toward 10M. And probably still sell on value even at the end of three years.

I'm sure Derby worked out what the value of Johnson was, intrinsically and football wise. and the risk they took is quite low considering the knowledge that the guy has done it all before, is no prima donna and will add a dynamism to  a pretty but lightweight midfield. And they haven't lost since he arrived.

Surely someone at our club is evaluating players and understanding that like it or not, high fee, wages, agents bribes etc are just part and parcel of playing in a division that does reward club's like ours in massive financial terms with continued membership of said division.

 

[GazzaTCC]

Great read this thread, with some very interesting and mixed views.

I personally don't believe that our recruitment campaign was somehow hindered by our late promotion, simply because the transfer window doesn't really get going in any event until June and only starts to pick up speed when players return to pre-season in late June.

I suspect many of our potential targets were keeping their options open for as long as possible in order to negotiate the best deals for themselves.

I also think Norwich is different to other clubs in that we only spend according to the cash actually available. And therein lies another problem, as Financial Fair Play actually permits clubs to lose money over a three year period. Other clubs can do so because of their owners. Norwich simply can't.

One other thing that was different during the past window was the number of clubs who actually disclosed bids received for their players.

I suspect, in many instances, this was due in part to the pending increases in Premier League revenues next season which contributed to some crazy bids.

In others, because the clubs were trying to entice other clubs to create a  bidding war for players they knew they would be selling.

Maybe, these combination of circumstances resulted in our overall lack of success.