Sorry Alex, enough is enough!

[Brian Fantana]

Maybe he would tinker less if any of the team actually staked a claim for a place, one week they have a good game and the next they look like football is not their usual sport and they have never met each other.

The back four is a good example, normally I ma a big fan of having a settled back four but which of the current shower would you have continued to play through the errors they have made?

 

[GJP]

But then without him giving a settled side a run of games how can they be expected to show their best form?

 

[RhythmicTheory]

There are too many unforced errors, when not under pressure, those arent down to a run in a settled side.  I still maintain that this team is mentally weak.  I would stick with Alex and let him rebuild the side if we went down.

 

[GJP]

Some things are the players at fault. But some is the manager. It's been pretty even so far this season.

I don't think we should be turning a blind eye to mistakes AN has made. He gets a lot of praise for getting us promoted and it's almost as if some forget it was the players who actually put in the performances to get us there. So I don't particularly see why we stand by him but not by them.

 

[Canaryboy]

 I still maintain that this team is mentally weak. 

I agree, we've got a lack of leaders on the pitch.

But this was also a problem that we identified last time we were in the league, and seemingly one which went unaddressed.

This is why I think that Naismith is such an important signing, doesn't seem afraid of getting vocal on the pitch, and I hope that Klose can find his voice and start bossing the defence because he looks like a bit of a hard man and has that steely gaze. 

I think we miss a midfield general too, Bradley Johnson was a bit technically limited but how important was he?

There is a reason why Glenn Whelan gets in the Stoke side, and its not because he plays like Pirlo. 

 

[GJP]

I think we miss a midfield general too, Bradley Johnson was a bit technically limited but how important was he?

There is a reason why Glenn Whelan gets in the Stoke side, and its not because he plays like Pirlo. 

Well Johnson did get relegated last time around and was part of many of poor performances. You can't trust him in centre midfield in the Prem and clearly Brady is a better bet wide left.

As for Glenn Whelan, he's a competitor but his use of the ball is far better than Johnson's is/was.

 

[Canaryboy]

A lot of good players get relegated from the Prem, you can pin the same on much of our squad (including Robbie Brady). 

I know that Johnson had his weaknesses and was terrible at times under Hughton, but could also be an important player at times, especially in some of the scrappy six pointers against the weaker sides.

It also wasn't his fault that Hughton liked to play two defensive midfielders and our strategy for getting the ball up the pitch pretty much amounted to either get it to Snodgrass for a ridiculously slow counter attack or punt it to Elmander. 

Just think having the option of a hard man in midfield is a nice one to have and that there have been some games this season where we could have done with a bit of steel, Watford away is the one that sticks in my mind. 

 

[GJP]

I just don't see it. Yeah he gets stuck in from time to time but often the game passes him by because he's too slow to read it or physically too slow to react. I found he often went missing when we were up against it.

He's a decent player and was a great signing for us on a free transfer but I really haven't seen anything this season that's made me think "I wish we still had Johnson". Certainly not like I've sat there in the past and thought "If only that was Grant Holt" or "If only we had Hucks".

 

[hogesar]

I'm probably one of Bradley Johnson's biggest fans but I don't see how he would have made the difference for us in many of the games. Perhaps against the poorer teams there's a claim to say his determination and willingness which lends itself to a part of leadership may have motivated the guys enough to get certain results over the line. The problem is if you look at the midfielders we've had available most weeks, how often would he have got into the first team? He'd only get on the left if both Jarvis and one of Brady / Olsson were out injured. Centre midfield he's got to get in ahead of Tettey / Mulumbu / Howson / Dorrans.

Baring in mind Howson doesn't tend to get dropped even when he plays poorly, that doesn't leave him with much of a chance.

 

[RhythmicTheory]

Some things are the players at fault. But some is the manager. It's been pretty even so far this season.

I don't think we should be turning a blind eye to mistakes AN has made. He gets a lot of praise for getting us promoted and it's almost as if some forget it was the players who actually put in the performances to get us there. So I don't particularly see why we stand by him but not by them.

Cant say I agree with that, I can only think of a couple of games at most where you could question the tactics, even then they resolved to players not doing their jobs (newcastle too gungho, but where was the midfield tracking runs)

The number of individual errors from Ruddy, Russel, Bassong, Olsson, Howson and Dorrans to name but a few has been quite incredible (the latter two, the lack of tracking runs from midfield).

 

[RhythmicTheory]

I just don't see it. Yeah he gets stuck in from time to time but often the game passes him by because he's too slow to read it or physically too slow to react. I found he often went missing when we were up against it.

He's a decent player and was a great signing for us on a free transfer but I really haven't seen anything this season that's made me think "I wish we still had Johnson". Certainly not like I've sat there in the past and thought "If only that was Grant Holt" or "If only we had Hucks".

We dont miss Bradley, as much as he was a likeable player, average footballer with a good shot.

 

[GJP]

Cant say I agree with that, I can only think of a couple of games at most where you could question the tactics, 

Really?

5 defeats in a row and with 46 league goals conceded already I think there are more than a couple of games where you can question tactics.

I don't disagree that individual errors have been costly although there's still an element of that which feeds back to AN making sure they do their jobs correctly.

 

[ZLF]

We have a squad of nearly prem quality players with one or two stand outs.   The biggest criticism of AN comes around the number of changes of both system but also player roles driven by the fact that teyh manager loses faith in the first one so tries to improve with another.

At the back the left side is solid,  AN prefers SB at LCB and increasingly Brady at left back to cover the less diligent and more ineffective olsson.  this has manifested in the whittaker/martin/wisdom merry-go-round at right back and the bennett - martin roll on roll off approach to RCB.    The manager started with a view but consistent poor quality & inconsistent performances in a variety of combinations but (rightly imo) has concluded that none are up to the job needed in the prem.   Pinto has yet to look any better (nor any worse - although there is more pace - as we have seen with olsson that doesnt add much) while Klose is more encouraging.   Its hard to say the manager has been wrong here;  he can only play the options.    My one question about the back is whether he could have compromised his attacking full back policy on the right.  Wisdom is a good defender;   would that have made us more secure?   I dont know.

In midfield its harder to asses.   AN got it right in selling BJ - he would simply add nothing to our season,  he was shifted left by first adams and then alex;  we have far better options now on the left and central - its a red herring to hark back to him.    IMO where AN tinkering (driven but an attempt to secure the back line) has negatively impacted the team is in this area.    Howson performs diligently but from week to week its in a different role with differing demands.  That makes it hard for him to perform at his best and it has affected his form if not his effort.   Selections like Tuesdays are odd - so defensive in approach but so defensively ineffective from all 5 midfielders,  and with no pace or creativity to allow to hit on the break effectively.   The mid 5 were too undisciplined and while spurs were good we allowed too many areas for spurs to exploit.   I struggle to see how we will win games without Wes or Redmond,  and the constant ditching of the most creative elements of the team means we are unlikely to win games.    

However it remains the players that are the main issue.   Their quality may not be good enough but working back defensively,  defending set pieces as asked,  not talking on the pitch,  watching players go past you and not taking responsibility as well as the individual errors  is at their door.  

 

[RhythmicTheory]

Really?

5 defeats in a row and with 46 league goals conceded already I think there are more than a couple of games where you can question tactics.

I don't disagree that individual errors have been costly although there's still an element of that which feeds back to AN making sure they do their jobs correctly.

No I don't personally, I haven't seen a lot wrong in his tactics, i've seen players not performing their duties, players making individual errors, players not turning up (which is why I don't see this group as mentally strong).  So you could argue that there must be a problem in the coaching?  At which point your guessing, because no one knows what goes on in those sessions.  So i guess I see your point if your assuming that's the reason, I personally put the emphasis on personal responsibility once roles are defined.  I will concede he doesn't know his best 11, but then no one has staked a claim and your back to the players again.

Chicken and the egg i guess, I just believe its the eggs fault

 

[RhythmicTheory]

Also just to take those 5 matches:

Man City, was a completely changed team, no one really stood out.  Could argue the manager should have stuck with same team, but you understand why (injuries, suspensions)

Stoke, we were flying until O'Neil's red, genuinely believe we would have got something out of that

Bournemouth, players didnt turn up (didnt see it but that was the general consensus, I maybe wrong here)

Liverpool, with 25 mins to go we are 3-1 up, clearly the plan was working until individual errors cost (i.e. howson, dorrans and russel went awol)

Spurs, form team, lots of dodgy decisions however I still think we would have got beat, looked a nervous team in the first 30, which killed us.

I dont blame the manager for any of that and I didnt question his tactics, bar the lineup for Liverpool, which clearly i was wrong because with 25mins to go we were 3-1 up.

 

[Beauseant]

Ultimately our plight is a combination of factors. Neil has certainly made some mistakes, but it's reasonable to expect more from the players, some of whom (Hi Nathan) have clearly hidden when the going has got tough and others who have made schoolboy errors at crucial times, Tettey's brainless foul at West Ham which led to the equalizer, Brady's ridiculous decision to head a ball back into the middle of the penalty area against Liverpool and O'Neil's equally brainless sending off at Stoke. Managers can legislate for that.

However, let me throw in another point, triggered by BJ popping up. Do you remember the dark days of Neil Adams when BJ and Tettey were deployed as deep lying playmakers and how awful we looked (and this in the Championship)? Tettey on the ball is clumsy, blinkered and takles toop many touchs, whereas BJ suddenly thought he was Glenn Hoddle and started sending raking crossfield passes into the stands. As destroyers and motivators by example they were fine, but as ball players they were less than adequate, and yet we still haven't found a deep midfielder who can win balls AND do something constructive with them. Tettey was fit for purpose in the Prem of two years ago (as was Tiote at Newcastle for example) but the game has moved on to and the trend is now for  all round athletic players in holding roles, with the likes of Eric Dier being a prime example. Much has been made of our defensive and attacking weaknesses but I think this has deflected attention from our problems in midfield.

 

[RhythmicTheory]

thats why I was pleased to hear we were in for Jedinak, real shame we didnt get him.  I read on Bethnals twitter it was down to Palace wanting Diame and Hull not finding a replacement in time.

 

[GJP]

No I don't personally, I haven't seen a lot wrong in his tactics, i've seen players not performing their duties, players making individual errors, players not turning up (which is why I don't see this group as mentally strong).  So you could argue that there must be a problem in the coaching?  At which point your guessing, because no one knows what goes on in those sessions.  So i guess I see your point if your assuming that's the reason, I personally put the emphasis on personal responsibility once roles are defined.  I will concede he doesn't know his best 11, but then no one has staked a claim and your back to the players again.

Chicken and the egg i guess, I just believe its the eggs fault

But when you accuse players of not doing their jobs you're assuming you know what they are being asked to do. Obviously AN wouldn't have asked Martin to attempt a weak back pass from the halfway line but in terms of picking up men/tracking runners and what space to move into we can only guess what AN wants the players to do.

Against Spurs, for example, Howson and Jarvis kept going narrow which gave Spurs plenty of space on the flanks. It's not unreasonable to think AN instructed them to go narrow and they were they doing as told.To many it may have seemed that they were doing the wrong thing by allowing Spurs down the wings but perhaps they were just following instructions.

 

[GJP]

Also just to take those 5 matches:

Man City, was a completely changed team, no one really stood out.  Could argue the manager should have stuck with same team, but you understand why (injuries, suspensions)

Stoke, we were flying until O'Neil's red, genuinely believe we would have got something out of that

Bournemouth, players didnt turn up (didnt see it but that was the general consensus, I maybe wrong here)

Liverpool, with 25 mins to go we are 3-1 up, clearly the plan was working until individual errors cost (i.e. howson, dorrans and russel went awol)

Spurs, form team, lots of dodgy decisions however I still think we would have got beat, looked a nervous team in the first 30, which killed us.

I dont blame the manager for any of that and I didnt question his tactics, bar the lineup for Liverpool, which clearly i was wrong because with 25mins to go we were 3-1 up.

Man City - felt he got it wrong, 3 centrebacks didn't work, we went behind early and had no punch (or desire) to get back into it. Crucially it ended a short but good run of form.

Stoke - who knows what could have happened.

Bournemouth - players didn't turn up but maybe but again, there is always a responsibility on the manager to get his troops up for a game.

Liverpool - can easily be argued he did not shore us up when we needed it and paid the price. There were defensively minded players on the bench but he didn't look to them. Oddly he didn't look to Mulumbu but then deemed Mulumbu suitable to play the whole game against Spurs.

Spurs - Played with two defensive midfielders and a centre midfielder on the right wing, if Hughton had done that it would have been called out for being negative. Clearly didn't work, played into Spurs hands. They're a good team but we made it easy for them.

Again, I'm not saying it's all AN's fault but I just wonder how happy people would be with him if he was appointed in the summer (say from Hamilton) and wasn't riding on what he did here last season. Too many his selections/tactics are all over the place and the brand of football is often pretty uninspiring.

 

[Canaryboy]

My stance on Alex Neil is really simple. If we finish 17th or above this season he has succeeded, and if we don't then he has failed. 

It could go either way, probably 50/50.