Way ahead?

[ZLF]

All well and good having a moan but without free agents we have the players we do and whoever the manager is we have to use them to turn around this winter debacle.

My view is we stick with todays back 4;  its needs some stability and we wont improve with the current merry go round - stick with one of the right backs either pinto (why bother buying if not,  despite what fans suggest our players dont improve not playing) wisdom (if we genuinely wasnt to slow the goals conceded), whittaker (like pinto,  just slower) Martin (he IS captain you know).    Brady showed today why he is the best option - far better going forward and defending than olsson.  

Secondly build around our creative players - meaning wes and redmond.   Yes their form may be variable (as creatives usually are) but the (simple) facts are stark;   when both start for us we gain 4 times as many points per game, score twice as many and concede a third less goals.   Its not hard to see why;  if just one starts its ridiculously easy to mark the other out of the game in (accurate as it turns out) the belief that we are unlikely to create from elsewhere - as less than a goal a game highlights.  As a pair they give opponents more to thinks about, so also score less,  outweighing the fact that wes IS lightweight and Redmond ISNT the best defender. 

We have only won one game without both starting (Swansea) and not taken a point one either occasion when neither has started

 Gamespoints scoredagainstWith both101.71.61.5Without both150.40.82.2

We wont survive or gain points without scoring;   Neither are as effective as subs (redmond v everton probably the one exception.)  Add in the one recent highlight being the link up play between redmond, wes & naismith v liverpool that, together with klose, feels like a slim axis to build around.  Add in Tettey as the best def midfield option and we have a spine. 
 
Striker - much of a unthreatening muchness,  ditto the remaining midfield slot;  howson most likely but ONeil edges it for me but dorrans is best there but like the alternatives is a bit meh.
My preference is

                      Rudd (y)

Pinto Klose  Bassong  Brady

            Tettey  o'Neil

 Redmond Wes Naismith

             Bamford

 

[GJP]

Rudd out, Ruddy in. Should have happened after Liverpool.

Bring Whittaker back. Ridiculous that he has been dropped and basically frozen out considering what has happened since. Maybe no better defensively than anyone else but clearly a better player going forward than the rest.

Play Howson in central midfield. Particularly the right hand slot. Partner him with Tettey. That's the two best midfielders at the club on the pitch at the same time and playing next to each other.

Play Redmond on the right. As I've said elsewhere, there's little point dropping him if it isn't getting you results.

Put Brady on the left wing. I don't think Olsson is the best defender ever but Brady has made costly mistakes at left back. May as well put him to better use going forward. 

Put either Bamford or Jerome upfront. What AN built his success on was having that mobile front man. He's switched to Mbokani who is a decent player but lacks mobility.

 

[RhythmicTheory]

I would play 3 4 3 with wing backs, I would bring Ruddy back in, no sleight on Rudd, but we need experience at the moment and someone better at crosses.

                                                 Ruddy

                                    Bennett Klose Bassong

                        Pinto                                          Brady

                                      Howson     Tettey

                                              Hoolahan

                                  Cam/Mbokani Bamford

You mitigate you wingbacks lack of concentration by having three at the back, Klose being the covering defender, we have Ruddy in goal as likely to have to deal with more crosses.  Tettey drops, to tighten up in front of the defence, but you have three central defenders, more than enough for 1 or 2 man striker formations.  Both Pinto and Brady have licence to bomb forward.

Howson back to his natural role pushing up in support of Wes, who has the freedom to roam and create.  Mbokani/Cam of you some aerial threat/presence, with Bamfords movement off them.

You can interchange Oneil for Tettey, Olsson for Brady, Martin for Bennet, Naismith for Wes or Bamford.

 

[Killiecanary]

Like almost all of this.  

But out I think Naismith has to play.  Whether in place of Wes or beside him to sacrifice one of the front two

 

[SussexYellow]

Like the stats ZLF - quite persuasive!

 

[Number 9]

That's all well and good, but, AN has a firm belief that young Wesley ain't fit enough to play every game.

So you're picking which games to play him, the team & tactics change that game and therefore back to square one.

One of your most reliable and experienced midfield generals loses his head and gets sent off / suspended for his first time in 200 games. So you change again.

And Lord help me! Who is voting to see Whittaker running in slow motion trailing behind a striker / winger as he gets caught up field without the legs to get back and defend AGAIN!

I'm gonna go sit next to him on the bench & maybe I'll suddenly turn into Messi too.

 

[RhythmicTheory]

thats what the interchangeable players are mentioned for, I see those players being able to slot into the same position, in some cases offering something slightly different, O'neil for Tettey, Naismith for Wes.

 

[Killiecanary]

I am not getting the Redmond love in.  Simply ineffective for us in my view...especially so recently.  I would love to see him live up to his billing, but recently he has been massively out of form.

 

[GJP]

And Lord help me! Who is voting to see Whittaker running in slow motion trailing behind a striker / winger as he gets caught up field without the legs to get back and defend AGAIN!

It also happens with Martin. Infact he is probably worse for it.

But Whittaker gives you more going forward. We're a worse footballing side without Whittaker.

 

[Fimbo]

The stats are interesting but you have to ask what is causing them. It could be that Wes and redmond combine well. Or it could be that they are only started in the 'easy' games. Or something else.... Such are stats.

As for the way forward, I no longer have a clue. Yes to more stability and hope that confidence can be restored fast.

 

[Number 9]

It also happens with Martin. Infact he is probably worse for it.

But Whittaker gives you more going forward. We're a worse footballing side without Whittaker.

I agree about Martin, I disagree about Whittaker.

Both in same category, in my opinion, not got enough for the Prem

 

[Lavanche]

I dont know why people keep saying Brady is better full back than Olsson. That is just nonsense. Main attributes of being FB is positioning, speed, tackling and being able to deliver some crosses in the right area. Olsson is better in first two, they tie third and Brady is better third.

Brady was good in first part of season when he played as winger. Now he ia equally poor with everyone and hardly gets in to situation where he could do some damage as his speed isn't enough to get back if we lose the ball. Come one we played yesterday against Aston Villa and Brady still struggled as a LB where Olsson was MOTM against one of the top teams. 

This is in my opinion one of the biggest mistakes that AN has made.

I completely agree though that we should have solid CB pair and we should build around creativity. Hoolahan and Redmond should be first names in the paper when we face equal opponents. Naismith has been decent for us this far and it would be very hard to drop him now, but this is exactly the dilemma I didnt want when we signed Naismith. Creativity vs. Clinicality and with Naismith and Bradys pricetag there is huge pressure to put them into the field whatever the situation is, which means that someone plays out of the natural position or we cant't get both Redmond and Hoolahan in same team with them.

Striker situation is odd. Mbokani has been ok in his role, but his mobility makes us so slow and ve hardly manage to get counters that have any threat in . Have to say I was very surprised Bamford's energy. I always considered him as a good finisher over everything else, but he had hunger and attitude to try and turn the game around. Jerome never has done anything wrong except that Stoke miss, but for some reason we haven't seen him start in a while so probably out of favor now.

So my first eleven would be something like this.

Pinto - Klose - Bassong - Olsson

          Tettey - O'Neil

Redmond - Hoolahan - Brady

               Naismith

Bit harsh for Howson and Mbokani, but in my opinion this is only way we have  creativity, speed, but still harmony over the field. Bamford, Howson, Jarvis and Mbokani gives us options to mix it, but I dont want us to start with three central attacking players (Hoolahan,Mbokani Naismith for example) or play players at wing who cant beat their opponents.

 

[ZLF]

Norwich01West Bromwich AlbionNorwich10SouthamptonNorwich20Aston VillaManchester United12NorwichNorwich45LiverpoolSunderland13NorwichNorwich11StokeNorwich11EvertonSouthampton30NorwichNorwich31Bournemouth
These are the 10 games,  a mixed bag if biased towards home games.

 

[ZLF]

I cant agree on olsson lavanche;

his crossing is woeful,  his positioning, discipline and tackling simply not up to it; for me he is a worse full back than martin or whittaker - by having pace all his sins get overlooked.   

No, brady really isnt a left back,  but he still does that job far better than the dozy olsson. With better options in front  (having any of jarvis, howson or naismith in front is a better combo that olsson behind brady) its what we will continue to see as for once a manager seems to agree with my view - the team is better having brady deep than olsson on the pitch.  well, in my opinion anyway,  I accept we all see it differently  h34r:  

A great example is liverpools winning goal, brady rightly got plenty of criticism for a weak header;  but at that time olsson was the left back,  but as usual he was nowhere to be seen having given up on his defensive duty (oddly he was awol in a right central midfield position, casually observing liverpools attack) - that malaise, that lack of commitment and abandonment of responsibility is the biggest endemic scourge in this squad, olsson high amongst them.  Brady was covering Olsson arse and diligently doing his job but is the one coping the flack - figure that out.

 

[Lavanche]

Olsson's position in Liverpool games was because of tactics. Dont know english word for it, but in our play book if full back gets front of winger and we lose the ball winger is supposed to do full backs defensive job until the situation is cleared and vice versa. Changing roles middle of opposition posession is dangerous. Same goes overall the pitch if Howson as midfielder is head of the attack either his side winger or our attacking midfielder drops in his place.

Olsson was in place he was supposed to be in that goal and most likely he was even supposed to play more or less front of Brady much as possible as he had fresh legs.

I doubt AN rates Brady as better full back than Olsson, but because he wants to use 3 central midfielders to cover our shaky central defence so he needs to get more attacking player type to full back position to keep the squad balanced after sacrificing one winger.

Anyway if you check Brady's contribution as LB: 14 (4 - 2 - 8)  4 victories where opponents were Aston Villa H, Sunderland A, Bournemouth H and Southampton H and a draw against Liverpool A and Stoke H. 

9 games as LM: (2 - 3 - 5) Victories against Swansea and ManU, draws against Everton, Arsenal, West Ham and losses against Chelsea, Man City, Watford and Spurs.

You don't have to be braniac to see pattern there. When he is LB we get points mainly from easiest games and lose quite much everyone else.

And when he is LM we seem to get odd points from harder games too.

Olsson in other hand has played 11 games as LB (2-3-6): Losses were against Newcastle (Oh I want to forget that game already), Man City, Chelsea, Spurs twice, Liverpool and Watford. So he kind a has lost for who we were supposed to lose outside of Watford (well they have had great season) and Newcastle. Victories were Swansea and ManU, draws Arsenal, Everton and West Ham.

When you check table Olsson has played in harder games as defender and still managed to come out with similar ratio than Brady. So stats wise we should use Olsson as LB and Brady as LM. 

One interesting stat is that Mbokani getting more than 45 minutes playing time. 11 games, 9 losses, 2 wins. Where with Cameron Jerome more than 45 minutes 12 games, 4 losses, 4 victories and 4 draws. 

 

[ZLF]

Olsson's position in Liverpool games was because of tactics. Dont know english word for it, but in our play book if full back gets front of winger and we lose the ball winger is supposed to do full backs defensive job until the situation is cleared and vice versa

As i said - brady was doing his job and covering olsson - but poorly.

I do get that - but this wasnt Olsson recovering position from an attack.   I was shortly after kick off & following a throw in on the right flank for liverpool - - he was just out of position and as usual simply not making much of an effort to do his core job - defending.

& I would much rather have brady tearing down the wing than olsson and the chances of keeping possession or creating anything are so much better.  

Happy to agree to differ.

 

[El Convento]

Agree with ZLF about Olsson.  He is far less of a threat going forward than Brady - his forays forward very rarely result in a cross or any sort of creative ball; when he discovers a defender blocking his path he usually turns around and passes back to Bassong.  But he is equally tackle shy and also badly positioned in defence - I imagine that's why AN feels he has to waste Brady there.

 

[GJP]

I know what ZLF is saying about Olsson but I'm of the opinion we can pretty much forget tightening up the defence this season (or under AN). Should have happened, hasn't happened.

Therefore I'd keep Brady further forward.

 

[It's Character Forming]

I very much agree with the OP that we need Hoolahan and Redmond in the team together otherwise we look poor creatively - like Saturday where we created very little (although more than Villa in the first half).  This has worked in the past with 1 striker and 5 across the midfield, so Wes can have a free role in the middle.  Problem now is - how to we accommodate Naismith ?  Who gives way ?

On Saturday AN tried basically a 442 with Hoolahan on the left.  We know it's not his best position - to create from there he has to wander inside and we need him to do that, but of course that leaves a gap in front of the left back and Villa were able to get the ball out there all day.  It's no coincidence that a run down there brought the free kick that lead to their first goal.  Can't blame Wes - he can't be in two places at the same time.  So what do we do ?  Drop Wes (no) or start Naismith up front on his own, or on the bench ?  None are a good answer.

I think the defensive 5 did ok on Saturday (better than the rest of the team) - except for the start of the second half when they all seemed to have a moment of collective madness and try to go so far up the pitch that we had no defensive cover at all, letting Villa play a simple ball which gave Agbonlahor a run straight on goal.  Rudd had to decide whether to come or stay - in hindsight he made the wrong choice but if you watch the replay, it looks like the attacker is beyond the last defender so normally the goalie has to come when that's happened.  Just before their second goal, we'd had a corner and the ball had come out, our midfield were playing it around with our defenders staying up in the box and I suddenly thought WTF because if we'd lost the ball, there was absolutely no defensive cover.

I think Brady did well (with little cover in front of him) and aside from the madness of the 2nd goal, Klose and Bassong were rarely troubled by Villa, and on the right hand side Martin behind Howson did well. Aside from a mistake for the goal - and it's harsh to blame him really - Rudd also did well, although he didn't have that much to do TBH, but I did notice one occasion when the ball was played back to him under pressure on his left, like the situation that lead to a goal earlier in the season because of a poor clearance, and he made a good solid clearance.  So I can't see that we could change our back 5 to improve things.  klose looked very good defensively - it was painfully obvious he's not used to having to bring the ball forward into the opposition half and hopefully a bit of coaching will let him know what options he should be thinking about (i.e. not lofting the ball gently forward) but defensively he looked an upgrade to me.

At least Naismith looks like a class player (unlike say RVW or Elmander).  But I just don't know how to accommodate him in the team. And that was against Villa - against proper Prem teams, bringing him in just leaves us terribly exposed in midfield.

My feeling is we go back to basics, Wes and Redmond starting, Mbokani or Jerome (or potentially Bamford) up front, Naismith on the bench as a supersub.  I doubt it will happen.  But I can't see any better options.

 

[Lavanche]

Too bad we dont have cup games to try out Bamford alone as starter or Naismith alone as starter. If we stick with Brady at LB  (which in my opinion will lead relegation with all other nonsense we have at back four and creativity problems at last third,) we can fit Naismith - Hoolahan - Redmond in 4-2-3-1 with striker, but that will mean that we would have to drop Howson as he really isn't defensive midfielder and his running game is wasted if used as one. Of course he can play box to box role, but that would mean games like we had against Liverpool where opponent can quite much free score against our defence.

Well now it is up to Alex to make hard decisions. Hoolahan, Naismith, Redmond, Howson, Brady, Mbokani/Striker or taking one man away from protecting defence. That is the question and in my opinion Alex is taking wrong direction with his approach at the moment. We are playing more and more long balls and we just dont have speed and energy for that kind of approach. It is starting to remainding me of Lambert approach, but back then we at least had confidence with us and a team that was suited that kind of hoof balls.