Lifetime bans for racism

[The Great Mass Debater]

Just read the racism thread. Good to have a clear account of what happened, and good for those who challenged the racism. Racism should not be tolerated and clearly in this circumstance it wasnt. But... I've been left wondering about the lifetime ban response our club has and others have. We want to send a strong message, which is good. But is a lifetime ban right and correct?

This implies we just write that individual off for life and make no attempt to influence or change attitudes. Writing the individual off implies their attitudes are too deeply engrained to modify and that they are, always will be, and always will be defined as a racist.

Would not a better response be community service, or some kind of compulsory course that tries to address the underlying attitude and maybe broaden them. People surely need to be given the opportunity to change their behaviour, something banning them doesnt do.

Just wondered what people thought on this. Think banning people indeed sends a clear message (both to the individual and makes clear the clubs attitude and feelings on racism, so is politically very convenient) but does it actually move society forward?

If someone is a crim, you can just sweep them under the carpet (jail) or you can try to stop them being a crim. Punishment alone doesnt seem to work, judging by the number of repeat offenders

 

[Canaryboy]

I suspect a lifetime ban from Carrow Road would be pretty difficult to enforce, particularly if it doesn't coincide with a Football Banning Order - it would make it very difficult or impossible to buy a season ticket, but how long will stewards realistically be able to remember your face from a photo (if the club can even obtain a photo),and what are the odds that they would notice you at 2.50pm when every man and his dog is trying to get through the turnstile?

 

[Beauseant]

I understand the OPs point but its predicated on being able to monitor the reintegration of the offender. Given that the club has no way of doing this and that there is, as you say, a need to send a clear message, I would have to say that I think life bans are the correct course of action.

I also think that the problem is societal rather than specifically football related, but since clubs started to take a hardline approach racism within grounds has reduced remarkably, which again supports the lifetime ban argument.

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

I suppose the question is how much of this is the clubs problem? Is the club a football entity, able to stick its head in the sand and expel those that offend it 'Romeo you are banished!', or is the club (and note the name club implies membership or a collection of people into a mini-community) obliged to play a wider role in society? This guy is part of our community as he is a Norwich fan. Do we accept our responsibility of trying to influence his views, or do we simply cast him out ie, you can be as racist as you like, just as long as its not in my backyard?

 

[David Maidstone]

Clearly a "lifetime" ban does not mean that, and is more for appearing to be the strictest enforcement possible rather than either to punish the offender or to act as a reasonable deterrent.

What the motives/reasoning of the individuals was no one can know except (and possibly not even) them.  However the chances of them reforming over such action is virtually nil, and they are more likely to become entrenched in their views, so yes GM Debater inviting them to take part in youth football with children from all backgrounds would be much better.

However the punishment is for the benefit of the media and well-meaning fans who want action to be seen to be done, and alas for the benefit of the authorities to prevent action being taken against NCFC.

Often in incidents that we wish hadn't happened at away games, the perpetrators are not regulars at home games anyhow and will happily carry on not caring about their ban.

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

Clearly a "lifetime" ban does not mean that, and is more for appearing to be the strictest enforcement possible rather than either to punish the offender or to act as a reasonable deterrent.

What the motives/reasoning of the individuals was no one can know except (and possibly not even) them.  However the chances of them reforming over such action is virtually nil, and they are more likely to become entrenched in their views, so yes GM Debater inviting them to take part in youth football with children from all backgrounds would be much better.

However the punishment is for the benefit of the media and well-meaning fans who want action to be seen to be done, and alas for the benefit of the authorities to prevent action being taken against NCFC.

Often in incidents that we wish hadn't happened at away games, the perpetrators are not regulars at home games anyhow and will happily carry on not caring about their ban.

Thats exaxctly my point. A lifetime ban looks good and makes everyone feel better. But it probably does very little to address the issue or advance society. And support of it simply enables the practice to continue. Think punishment needs to be a bit more pro-active and a bit less sound-bitey

 

[Scott]

Glad these people have been identified and are being investigated further. A lifetime ban from Carrow Road would be quite difficult to enforce for obvious reasons. Perhaps a fine? or even better community service? But thats for the police to decide!

 

[Andy]

Whilst I think that a lifetime ban may act as a deterrent to those fans who hold bigoted opinions from expressing them on match days, I think that more could be done to educate them. In my opinion the root of intolerance is ignorance. With the amount of money in football these days you'd think that the FL & BPL would fund race/cultural/sexual orientation awareness training for those in receipt of such a ban who show genuine remorse for their actions.

 

[Monty13]

Whilst I think that a lifetime ban may act as a deterrent to those fans who hold bigoted opinions from expressing them on match days, I think that more could be done to educate them. In my opinion the root of intolerance is ignorance. With the amount of money in football these days you'd think that the FL & BPL would fund race/cultural/sexual orientation awareness training for those in receipt of such a ban who show genuine remorse for their actions.

Agree with this, the route to solving most problems of this nature is education, punishment just ingrains and solidifies the ignorance without it. More should be done by these anti-racism movements to promote education and awareness amongst those accused, guilty or susceptible to racism.

People who are scared of acting racist because of the consequences and therefore don't in public is a start, but it doesn't really tackle the problem of why they feel that way, that's where more effort needs to go. 

Having said that it's hard to put that responsibility on the club, they have reacted as they should in the current climate.

 

[Agent Dale Cooper]

I'd hope that either the club or the police (or a combination of the two) would offer the guilty parties the opportunity to make a public apology - if they're going to be named and shamed anyway, the possibility of rehabilitation and a change of attitude is more likely if they are given a forum to address their behaviour directly and attempt to put it right.

If, however, they're remorseless scum, charge them, name and shame them, and enforce the lifetime ban.

 

[Canaryboy]

When those two lads ran from the Snakepit to throw their season tickets at Bryan Gunn they were given an 'indefinite' ban, which people and the media then interpreted as being a lifetime ban - but actually means a ban lasting for an unspecified length of time, to be specified later or ending at a later date at the discretion of the club. 

I'd like to think that the club could give a similar ban of initially unspecified length to the fan in question, refer the individual(s) to Kick it Out or a similar organisation for a period of education and rehabilitation with a view to them meeting and apologising to the Wolves player and Elliott Bennett's family, and then go live on Stan Collymore's Talksport slot to show the world how remorseful he is. Then McNally can decide how long his ban is. All rudimentary though because the police or courts may decide to give him/them a long football banning order themselves, if convicted. 

 

[Agent Dale Cooper]

Aren't they being punished enough already without having to go on Talksport?

Although, that said, maybe they could get Alan Brazil to apologise for his disgusting comments about Robin Williams at the same time...

 

[Canaryboy]

Aren't they being punished enough already without having to go on Talksport?

Although, that said, maybe they could get Alan Brazil to apologise for his disgusting comments about Robin Williams at the same time...

Stan Collymore is the only thing I like about Talksport, I don't know why I like him - probably because he always seems to understand what is going on at Carrow Road and is respectful towards us. He generally comes across as quite a humble guy as well, and has expressed his own remorse at things he has done in the past (can't imagine Durham or Brazil ever apologising for anything). 

 

[Andy]

Stan Collymore is the only thing I like about Talksport, I don't know why I like him - probably because he always seems to understand what is going on at Carrow Road and is respectful towards us. He generally comes across as quite a humble guy as well, and has expressed his own remorse at things he has done in the past (can't imagine Durham or Brazil ever apologising for anything).

Durham is a professional troll. I'm sure that his "opinions" are decided at pre-air management meetings and are largely scripted to provoke a response. Brazil is just a dinosaur who tries to say the right thing so as not to offend but struggles sometimes to keep his 1970s opinions to himself. Some of the things he came out with the other day were just ignorant but I don't think he intends to offend.

 

[Agent Dale Cooper]

I loathe Talksport. I think I'll just leave it at that and save myself a ten-minute rant.

 

[Canaryboy]

I loathe Talksport. I think I'll just leave it at that and save myself a ten-minute rant.

I said in another thread that I reckon they are all on a bonus scheme or commission from the 0870 number or 50p + standard network rate SMS. The more controversial or inflammatory they are the more people ring or text, and the more money the business makes. Durham and Galloway probably their top earners! 

 

[Agent Dale Cooper]

I said in another thread that I reckon they are all on a bonus scheme or commission from the 0870 number or 50p + standard network rate SMS. The more controversial or inflammatory they are the more people ring or text, and the more money the business makes. Durham and Galloway probably their top earners! 

My housemate used to listen to it constantly. Probably still does, but he isn't my housemate any more. Suffice to say I don't miss the red-top chuntering and the constant adverts for building materials.

 

[The Ghost of Michael Theo]

I was in the Lower N&P for the Liverpool game last season, and there were a few Liverpool fans that got in - without tickets - who ended up being thrown out.

If they can't even check tickets properly, how will they ever be able to check banned faces?

 

[BarclayBoy88]

I was in the Lower N&P for the Liverpool game last season, and there were a few Liverpool fans that got in - without tickets - who ended up being thrown out.

If they can't even check tickets properly, how will they ever be able to check banned faces?

There were also Liverpool fans in the snakepit and lower barclay that got tossed out.

How would they get in without tickets? I think the lads that got thrown out near me just bought home tickets. The guy in the snakepit did have a t-shirt on and a massive liverpool tattoo down his arm though....that would be a clue for me.

 

[The Ghost of Michael Theo]

There were also Liverpool fans in the snakepit and lower barclay that got tossed out.

How would they get in without tickets? I think the lads that got thrown out near me just bought home tickets. The guy in the snakepit did have a t-shirt on and a massive liverpool tattoo down his arm though....that would be a clue for me.

The ones with us didn't have tickets. The steward came up at half-time and told us.... but it was pretty obvious, as they were trying to squeeze onto the end of rows / find spare seats.

I think it's easy in up the N&P end. Since they installed the auto-ticket checkers, they have opened up the big gate doors to get people in the ground quicker. They have the ticket checking machines on the wall next to the gate, and everyone just walks in the big gates and scans their cards / tickets, while a few stewards check to make sure people use the machines and that tickets get checked. I'm pretty sure they're easily distracted when large groups are going in.

So, getting back to the original point, they'd have no chance of picking out people who are banned.