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The politics thread.

R

Rock The Boat

Member
Think we are in for massive changes when Trump takes over tomorrow. What happens in the US will reverberate around the world. Unfortunately both Starmer and Khan are trying to be the biggest d**k to Trump at the worst time possible and he will d**k them back bigger than they thought possible.
 
Fenway Frank

Fenway Frank

Well-Known Member
Think we are in for massive changes when Trump takes over tomorrow. What happens in the US will reverberate around the world. Unfortunately both Starmer and Khan are trying to be the biggest d**k to Trump at the worst time possible and he will d**k them back bigger than they thought possible.
All current politicians appear to be d**ks
 
morty

morty

Moderator
Staff member
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S

Sonyc

Well-Known Member
It's been a very long time since there was any party that actually represented the common man.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely and politicians are the best example of that. How long since any party followed through on their campaign promises?

I'd like to see a system where the incoming party have to fulfill the [e.g ] 10 campaign promises within a limited timeframe. Something along the lines of fulfill 3 in year 2, 3 in year 3 and 4 in year 4. Failing to do so triggers an election.
Something like that to keep them honest rather than this all too common rhetoric of "now we're in power, the situation is worse than we realised so we can't do what we vowed we would do if elected". What bullshit, you sat in Parliament for X years berating the current incumbents for what you think they should be doing. There's no freeking way you didn't know what the state of the economy was and if you really didn't then that's on you because you had every opportunity to find out.

There's a saying here in Oz that suits politicians very well: shit cunts.

Apologies for the language.
Agree with much of this. In terms of the 10 promises I've always wanted a system where our governments to focus on the 10 or so biggest issues / problems. Some exampleswtb here:
Improve UK workforce skills - aligned with vocational and industry needs (not simply to university or college itineraries but where the future jobs market will be)
The health of the nation - a set of strategies that will make everyone stronger, fitter, less obese and ergo less in need of health services (certainly to relieve emergency services). Prevention is far better / cheaper than cure.
Defence - build up our armed services - the best in Europe
Energy security - has been covered in part in another thread.
Water security. Re-nationalise and upgrade infrastructure based on health not shareholders.
Technology/ communications - investment in innovation
Immigration - we're an island and we cannot keep absorbing. Needs to link with other strategies above
Home care / social care - we have to pay for an ageing society
Local and regional services improved - at present a geographic lottery and biased against former industrial areas (north v south debate is one example)
Travel - network improvements (e.g. west to east not just south to north and London centric)...rail, canal, sea, etc
Agriculture - to be able to feed ourselves. Garlic from China? Jesus. (A daft example I realise but that's what supermarkets offer)
Towns / cities / places - need a purpose, a specialism - they need investing in

I realise this is a list of 12 and there's many more issues. Probation and prison services is another, as is education, as is tourism. The list goes on. The list is for illustration only

I would like it if there could be a national debate (ongoing) on what is most important to people - in that way everyone gets more understanding of the issues involved, the complexities, the trade offs, the cost, the long term planning needed. One could almost see a revised Beveridge Plan coming out of it - where national priorities are understood and governments have to try and deliver them. They could be measured by a number of indicators - hard data and not the shitty sound bites we hear from politicians about growth (whether Reeves or Hunt). Our governments should be making the country a better place and not merely serving who funds them. Scoop is right about the 'common man'

We need a national plan for the 2030s at the very least. We need politicians who collaborate with each other (which is why arguably a form of PR is not a panacea) and with industry, scientists as well as what's really important to the general public. There may well be regular referendums though they have been a scarcely used resource.

Not exactly a Utopia though but it would make a start for me. I suppose far too idealistic an idea in the first place too. Too many interests involved for such a thing to ever happen.
 
TheGunnShow

TheGunnShow

Member
Full Swiss model would be a vast improvement. I have said this on the PinkUn for years, and will continue to say so. The underlying problems in our politics are, inter alia:

1. Excessive influence of big money and often from outside actors (and a rather over-compliant mainstream media that doesn't ask enough fair questions of the powers-that-be, as opposed to the tribal muck-racking that masquerades as journalism nowadays).

2. The populace has far too little ability to set political agendas or at least respond to them.

3. Our voting model is far too coarse - you can only pick a manifesto without saying if you really agree with most of it, some parts of it, or just think it's marginally less shite than the other party. Throw in that in FPTP the end game is ALWAYS two behemoths swinging it out for overly prolonged periods of time and all it does is cement power in the hands of the status quo without them really having to earn it.
 
S

Sonyc

Well-Known Member
Full Swiss model would be a vast improvement. I have said this on the PinkUn for years, and will continue to say so. The underlying problems in our politics are, inter alia:

1. Excessive influence of big money and often from outside actors (and a rather over-compliant mainstream media that doesn't ask enough fair questions of the powers-that-be, as opposed to the tribal muck-racking that masquerades as journalism nowadays).

2. The populace has far too little ability to set political agendas or at least respond to them.

3. Our voting model is far too coarse - you can only pick a manifesto without saying if you really agree with most of it, some parts of it, or just think it's marginally less shite than the other party. Throw in that in FPTP the end game is ALWAYS two behemoths swinging it out for overly prolonged periods of time and all it does is cement power in the hands of the status quo without them really having to earn it.
As was always the case (when you could make a point on the Pinkun) you've made a far better post than my own TGS. Mine hinted at the interests, voting model and populace whereas yours is a neat and concise summary (thumbs up emoji)
 
morty

morty

Moderator
Staff member
I agree that the system is a mess, the two main parties have tried to scoop up the middle ground that was occupied by the Lib Dems (A lot of people forget they used to be big) before they basically turned into the Green party in disguise.

I would like to see a lot of power actually taken away from politicians. In the case of the NHS especially, it is used as a political football yet nobody ever seems to have a proper stab at solving the issues, simply throwing more money at it really isn't working. It has become a ridiculous socialist construct, wasteful, bloated, inefficient, and providing jobs for the boys. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of lovely, well meaning people, but the whole thing is just hilariously badly managed. Ringfence it, appoint a committee of doctors to take the decisions, and ringfence an amount of GDP to it, then bar any politicians even trying to make wild election promises about it.

The treasury should not be political in any way, take control back from the bank of England, and stop politicians spunking money on ridiculous things. There should have been someone there to say to Milliband "No way mate, we can't afford that". Clearly Rachel from accounts either didn't want to, or didn't have the power to.

Have a process where people can have a say other than at general elections, and there can be accountability. For instance the vast majority of the country, as shown in many polls, are concerned about excessive migration, both legal and illegal, and the effects it is having on house availability, pressure on the NHS, crime, and the welfare state in general. Both parties have been fannying around with this, with no real progress, it feels like they are just kicking the can down the road as this issue is firmly in the "too hard" box. If you ever watch PMQ's it shows just how little actual accountability there is.

We have become bloated and lazy as a nation, reliant on cheap imports of goods and labour. I hate the globalist agenda pushed by both parties, look after Britain first.
 
Fenway Frank

Fenway Frank

Well-Known Member
Ringfence it, appoint a committee of doctors to take the decisions, and ringfence an amount of GDP to it
This needs to happen in a number of areas, education, health , armed forces etc. One of the big problems is that the people that have been given the job of sorting things out have zero experience. I have friends in the NHS and a retired headteacher and they've said that not only have ridiculous decisions have been made in the past, they don't get listened to either even though they know the job.
The other really frustrating thing is that we can all see the problems but the politicians either can't see them or have an agenda and don't seem to want to deal with them
 
lyb

lyb

Active Member
This needs to happen in a number of areas, education, health , armed forces etc. One of the big problems is that the people that have been given the job of sorting things out have zero experience. I have friends in the NHS and a retired headteacher and they've said that not only have ridiculous decisions have been made in the past, they don't get listened to either even though they know the job.
The other really frustrating thing is that we can all see the problems but the politicians either can't see them or have an agenda and don't seem to want to deal with them
I'd amend that slightly and suggest that a large problem is that all politicians rely on the civil service to feed the information to them upon which they can make decisions. As such, a lot of information gets 'lost' between the ground floor and the politicians if it doesn't suit what the civil service considers appropriate for whatever reason.

This is why both main parties have made efforts to bring in outside advisors into their departments and, for their part, the departments of the civil service have introduced rules to make it as difficult as possible.
 
morty

morty

Moderator
Staff member
I'd amend that slightly and suggest that a large problem is that all politicians rely on the civil service to feed the information to them upon which they can make decisions. As such, a lot of information gets 'lost' between the ground floor and the politicians if it doesn't suit what the civil service considers appropriate for whatever reason.

This is why both main parties have made efforts to bring in outside advisors into their departments and, for their part, the departments of the civil service have introduced rules to make it as difficult as possible.
The civil service, the same as the NHS, needs burning down and starting again. Both have become politically motivated.
 
lyb

lyb

Active Member
I don’t know if I’ve made this point before, but I think we’re beyond the point where we can simply throw our institutions out for the sake of flaws that are frustrating and difficult to correct. There are just too many civil protections tied in there that we’ll never get back, and the baby will be thrown out with the bathwater, much as is happening in the US.

Technology for controlling people is simply too advanced to rely on revolutionaries having our best interests at heart rather than being wannabe tyrants.
 
G

gerryinromania

Well-Known Member
Civil service. Huh. Each year they get stronger and bigger, no matter what the government try to do, they are the rulers and untouchable
 
TheGunnShow

TheGunnShow

Member
Jeez, got a post deleted from a childfree group when someone said that kids give you unconditional love and I threw in the following response:

"We wanted to ask Maddie McCann if she still loved her parents but for some reason she wasn't available to comment".
 
Fenway Frank

Fenway Frank

Well-Known Member
It's ok everyone, the government are going to build Man Utd a new stadium, that will sort out all of the country's problems :rolleyes:
 
TheGunnShow

TheGunnShow

Member
To be fair, considering how much regeneration came about when the Commonwealth Games came to Manchester and how that part has really developed in the aftermath - and indeed the state of that corridor from Deansgate down to Old Trafford, then I don't think it's unfair to say that this part of Manchester could use a hefty injection.

I have a question: why can't Radcliffe really put his hand in his pocket though? He's from bloody Failsworth after all!
 
How I Wrote Elastic Man

How I Wrote Elastic Man

Member
I thought the government had simply backed the new Manchester United stadium proposals, rather than providing funding or any other assistance?
 
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