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Brexit.

W

Wonderbar

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#21
Job done! The pollsters got it wrong, which makes the immediate economic impact harsher as those who decided to increase market share at the last minute artificially inflated the stock market. This made the massive sell off a bit more dramatic,  but when cooler heads prevail, it will balance out and ultimately leave the UK stronger. 

I'm amused by Corbinner (<- double entendre intended) now saying he's got the backs of the working class. It was his own constituents he was so out of touch with who swung the vote to leave, but he was firmly in the remain camp. What a phony!
 
K

Killiecanary

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#22
That is a very good point, that I, technically, agree with. But I don't believe that, despite being in the gang, we have much say. As I said earlier in the thread, I read that the UK has tried over 50 times to veto decisions made, and has failed every single time.
@morty

ive been checking in on the pinkun mega thread (not willing to post in there as I vowed to myself I never would again following a particularly unpleasant experience previously) but am interested in your views on this.  I am very much pro EU (for many reasons which are relevant to me but are intensely personal) 

My query for you is are you really that confident that we have made a good choice given the economic issues it has precipitated (I'm afraid I don't accept a two day wishful thinking bounce as evidence of long term economic prosperity) ; the removal of BoJo from the leadership equation? ; the even more worrying decision of Michael Pob Gove to run ( a man I truly loathe following his tenure as SoS for education) ; the lack of  any plan from the brexiters and the possibility of losing Scotland and NI from the UK in one fell soon?  

I would be happy to hear from you,on this forum, which I enjoy and respect your view on...
 
morty

morty

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#23
In my opinion we made the only choice we could make. Brussels won't be happy till there is an united states of Europe, with one European army.

I have nothing whatsoever against European union business, the theory of it is fantastic, but it has evolved into so much more, and I have no interest in unelected officials in Brussels making "one size fits all" laws that affect my life. I prefer the old fashioned way where we elect our government at each general election, and cut them loose in the next if they aren't fulfilling promises.

Scotland are going nowhere, they had their independence referendum, and the EU isn't really in their current protestations. And I don't think there is any real desire for an united Ireland.

If I'm honest I'm disappointed in Cameron for not rolling his sleeves up and saying "Right, we're in this, lets get it done". I don't think theres many politicians in either party or the remain / brexit camps who came out of this with much credit.

Of course theres uncertainty, but its a risk I am willing to take. The people have spoken, and the politicians have no choice but to make this work, its about time they remembered its they who work for us, not the other way round. 
 
K

Killiecanary

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#24
I agree that very few politicians come out with any credit...especially since they have 'led' us into a mess ( which is what it is regardless of what our  own views may be - the UK has now no effective government, no effective opposition, no clear plan for the seismic shifts they have created and no secure future plan for changes that are coming) and have spent the time since the vote either hiding, plotting (mainly against each othe) or blustering.

im afraid  I can't agree it's you only choice... this is such a 50/50 issue that I think there are at least two clear choices...but with so may nuances in each that actually there are many different stances within each camp?

i guess you might know I am a Scot (20 years in Norfolk now and still love it every bit as much as I ever did) but I think  you are wrong about Scotland - in fact I am certain of it.  There will be another independence referendum and I am 75%  sure they  will leave this time.  Trust me when I tell you the EU issue will drive an 'out' movement up there.  

But most of all I really don't  get the logic of leaving the EU.  We were a member of a large trading union with no internal tariffs whatsoever - we now aren't and under no circumstance will we get that level of free access again.  I personally can live with that but what drives me to distraction is the jingoistic, daily mail platitude loving nonsense of some of those claiming we can have everything want 'because we're the UK (actually 'England') and we would somehow be doing them a favour to trade?  I worked in  Germany  for several years and this is so far from the truth as to be unbelievably naive.  For access to their single market we will have to accept free movement - if we don't won't get it or anything like it.  This isn't our call to make now - the EU will make it and we are not going to get that level of access whatever the DM says...

Im afraid we are about to,discover that we are not as important as we thought we were..and that spells trouble. 
 
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morty

morty

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#25
So where are Scotland going exactly? The EU aren't interested in taking them on.

No, sorry I do not accept free movement. There was a story in the papers today about a Romanian family of 16, living under a bridge in London. They had driven here with no plan, or offer of work, and couldn't find any. They now have no money to get back to Romania.

This utterly epitomises why free economic migration of workers cannot work, when you have massive disparities between different countries economies.

I have also lived in Europe for several years, and currently work pretty much all over the world.

I pretty much disagree with everything you have posted there, frankly.
 
K

Killiecanary

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#26
i don't think you can take one single story in the press (which paper I wonder) and extrapolate it to an entire continent.  If a family of 16 Romanians are living under a bridge in London then under the current legislation the uk has every right to remove them after three months of not providing economic activity - although why a family of Romanians would want to live under a bridge in London is a question someone maybe should ask - as well as asking for how long they would suffer it before returning home of their own accord. 

My point however isn't to disagree with you about totally free movement - but rather to argue that by voting as we have based in an immigration ticket that I feel very uneasy about we will not get free economic access to the single market,  you may feel that is worth it.  I don't.  Having studied economics in Europe and the U.K. And having worked as you have in many countries across Europe I am massively worried about the economic impact this will have on us all - and so far the response I've had to my worries is to be decried as a lefty softy who has no backbone add somehow has to 'toughen up'.  I am no lefty nor do I need to toughen up!    One thing I am sure of though - we won't get tariff free trade without accepting free movement...nobody else does.
 
morty

morty

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#27
Well, putting it bluntly, its happened, and you're just going to have to deal with it.

Thats democracy.
 
E

eatonparkboy

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#28
Democracy will only have a slender chance of working when 100% of those eligible to vote are made to do so. And that sounds undemocratic of course.

I find it amazing that the old argument about the EU being managed by undemocratic means and a threat to our sovereignty is still used as a back stop when we still maintain an unelected Upper House to manage legislation in the UK.

We do have to get on with it, of course we do, but I do wonder if the vote may have been different if many people had realised the political chaos that has developed. And the undemocratic way, and so many people use the word democracy to mean "it's my right", that the Labour Party allows the Facebook and Momentum brigade to decide its future by simply joining for a token fee simply to vote in Corbyn, probably a very nice chap, but not a front bencher in my opinion, means it is highly likely that the new Tory leader can call a snap election safely in the knowledge that there will be no opposition, maybe apart from Farage. the leader who was going to step down and a leader of a party that with our planned exit from the EU, has no reason to exist.

Speaking to my family in NZ, they tell me that themselves and Australia are not rushing to trade with us as we do not have anything they need or want. They trade with the evolving Asian market. Yes they will sell to us but not trade with us

So we will have to get on with it. But I do fear a time of unease and turmoil. I feel we will see a rise to prominence of those who wish to smash the system, a rise for those who seek to benefit from our exit  and the continuing demise of the UK as an entity and the polarisation of England into successful areas such as London and unsuccessful areas such as Cornwall where I live.
 
Gaffer

Gaffer

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#29
My point however isn't to disagree with you about totally free movement - but rather to argue that by voting as we have based in an immigration ticket that I feel very uneasy about we will not get free economic access to the single market,  you may feel that is worth it.  I don't.  Having studied economics in Europe and the U.K. And having worked as you have in many countries across Europe I am massively worried about the economic impact this will have on us all - and so far the response I've had to my worries is to be decried as a lefty softy who has no backbone add somehow has to 'toughen up'.  I am no lefty nor do I need to toughen up!    One thing I am sure of though - we won't get tariff free trade without accepting free movement...nobody else does.
True, we won't be part of the single market but is that such a bad thing? We have a massive trade deficit with the EU so the single market as it stands is clearly not working for us. Our current economic situation where our manufacturing sector is in permanent decline and we sell banking and insurance services to ourselves while ratcheting up a perpetually increasing trade deficit is unsustainable. Now we'll be in a position to negotiate trade deals with the whole world that benefit us and we'll have an opportunity to get that deficit down.
 
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morty

morty

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#32
:) Can’t help but laugh at that
Other than a few minor points, it actually sums up some of the reasons why I voted like I did. This whole thing has given politics the kick up the arse it needed. The next general election will be very interesting indeed, because, frankly, neither party is worthy of my vote right now.
 
OldRobert

OldRobert

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#33
I was really enjoying the B****t free zone on here Morty..............................:rolleyes:
 
Fenway Frank

Fenway Frank

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#34
“The next general election will be very interesting indeed, because, frankly, neither party is worthy of my vote right now.”

Agree with that, I’m definitely in the “can’t be bothered anymore because they’re all useless “ camp