Cardiff Dossier on Malky MacKay to the FA

[lyb]

What a load of *bleep*. It doesn't matter if they're private text messages, what they demonstrate is important. It's not just a risque joke here and there, it's indefensible stuff.

Also, the comment about groups rounding up people and executing them - people are capable of holding 2 concurrent thoughts. People can think this is bad and ISIS are bad. Commenting about one doesn't mean ambivalence about another, a news story about one doesn't mean the other is ignored, and if you want to follow that train of thought to it's logical end, what's the point reporting on or talking about anything that isn't as serious as the most serious thing. 

*bleep* isn't a swearword

Personally, I don't think this is bad and IS is bad. I think this is a bit disappointing but something that the vast majority of the human race is guilty of at some point in some way, shape or form and IS is pure unadulterated evil. 

 

[Canaryboy]

What a load of *bleep*. It doesn't matter if they're private text messages, what they demonstrate is important. It's not just a risque joke here and there, it's indefensible stuff.

Also, the comment about groups rounding up people and executing them - people are capable of holding 2 concurrent thoughts. People can think this is bad and ISIS are bad. Commenting about one doesn't mean ambivalence about another, a news story about one doesn't mean the other is ignored, and if you want to follow that train of thought to it's logical end, what's the point reporting on or talking about anything that isn't as serious as the most serious thing. 

*bleep* isn't a swearword.

It does bring about a wider debate though, because Cardiff privately appointed a London legal firm to probe Moody, who in turn obtained a court warrant to enter his property and seize files/computers etc to investigate claims of impropriety with transfer dealings.

I don't know much about the law, but it is probably a valid question for a layman to query whether passing on information to national newspapers about something which goes outside of the scope of the investigation and the warrant is proper conduct.

I have no idea either way, but presumably when a private law firm (not an authority) seeks to obtain a warrant they have to explain why they are seeking it and are granted it on the grounds that they present to the court. If those grounds were not "to find out if Malky is a racist", and the complaint isn't accompanied with evidence of impropriety with transfer dealings, then you do have to wonder whether that is abuse of the court procedures. Shame we don't have a barrister floating on NorwichTalk to advise! 

 

[Josh]

The 'vast majority' of the human race may be guilty of saying racist things, the vast majority aren't football managers, in the public eye or paid what Malky was. He's held to the standard of a modern person in a modern country where things like this are more than just 'a bit disappointing' but outright rejected and thrown out. Saying racist texts are 'a bit disappointing' is nothing but complacent, especially when its supported by a statement from the LMA, an organisation that has zero employed black managers - what does it say to them, that people think it's just banter, or 'disappointing'?. It's more than that, and the loud, swift and broadly universal rejection of it shows that most people agree. It's a relic and has no place in modern football or society - and it's right that people say so. 

That doesn't detract from or make other, bigger, more serious issues irrelevant. I don't understand why they're part of the argument at all. There can be more than one thing wrong, and there can be relatively minor wrongs and relatively massive ones. 

 

[Josh]

It does bring about a wider debate though, because Cardiff privately appointed a London legal firm to probe Moody, who in turn obtained a court warrant to enter his property and seize files/computers etc to investigate claims of impropriety with transfer dealings.

I don't know much about the law, but it is probably a valid question for a layman to query whether passing on information to national newspapers about something which goes outside of the scope of the investigation and the warrant is proper conduct.

I have no idea either way, but presumably when a private law firm (not an authority) seeks to obtain a warrant they have to explain why they are seeking it and are granted it on the grounds that they present to the court. If those grounds were not "to find out if Malky is a racist", and the complaint isn't accompanied with evidence of impropriety with transfer dealings, then you do have to wonder whether that is abuse of the court procedures. Shame we don't have a barrister floating on NorwichTalk to advise! 

I think this has already been addressed, but to my knowledge - the warrants and raids were part of an investigation into financial conduct regarding transfers. The data was collected then along with tons of other stuff, and not submissable until Malky himself sued for wrongful dismissal. Then it became relevant and usable by Tan's lawyers. 

 

[Canaryboy]

I think this has already been addressed, but to my knowledge - the warrants and raids were part of an investigation into financial conduct regarding transfers. The data was collected then along with tons of other stuff, and not submissable until Malky himself sued for wrongful dismissal. Then it became relevant and usable by Tan's lawyers. 

That would make sense. But is it submissable now that Malky has dropped the case for wrongful dismissal?

Anyway, whatever the ins and outs - he now looks unemployable and it is his own doing. I saw some tweets from a former Cardiff youth player of Somali heritage which seemed to reinforce the allegation that Malky is a racist, and no room for that in 21st century English football. 

 

[lyb]

The 'vast majority' of the human race may be guilty of saying racist things, the vast majority aren't football managers, in the public eye or paid what Malky was. He's held to the standard of a modern person in a modern country where things like this are more than just 'a bit disappointing' but outright rejected and thrown out. Saying racist texts are 'a bit disappointing' is nothing but complacent, especially when its supported by a statement from the LMA, an organisation that has zero employed black managers - what does it say to them, that people think it's just banter, or 'disappointing'?. It's more than that, and the loud, swift and broadly universal rejection of it shows that most people agree. It's a relic and has no place in modern football or society - and it's right that people say so. 

That doesn't detract from or make other, bigger, more serious issues irrelevant. I don't understand why they're part of the argument at all. There can be more than one thing wrong, and there can be relatively minor wrongs and relatively massive ones. 

Probably best just sack all of them then, because I'm certain they're all guilty of something, be it an affair, an offensive remark, a sexist remark or whatever or a dodgy expenses claim. The hypocrisy of our society is astounding.

 

[Josh]

You think making racist comments is on par with a dodgy expenses claim.

 

[Canaryboy]

Probably best just sack all of them then, because I'm certain they're all guilty of something, be it an affair, an offensive remark, a sexist remark or whatever or a dodgy expenses claim. The hypocrisy of our society is astounding.

There was a young Somalian player on twitter who last night claimed that Malky would constantly refer to him as the "wee Egyptian" on the training pitch, despite the fact that he was actually Welsh born and of Somalian heritage. He went on to claim that as they were getting off a coach at an away game he pointed at a random young Somalian kid and said "look that's *players name* little brother" before laughing his head off in front of the squad and coaches. The player seemed to suggest that all of the young black players were subjected to similar "banter" from Malky. 

Sorry but I wouldn't associate with people who find that sort of so called 'banter' amusing. I should imagine that you would hear this type of 'humour' on a building site, wouldn't know as I've never been on one, but you don't expect to hear it from a suit wearing Premier League manager on a seven figure salary. 

I suspect that you are right, most people do and say things that they go on to regret. Me included. But as it happens I think most people get the most stupid stuff out of the way when they are young and naive, not when they are in their forties and somewhere near the top of one of the worlds most coveted professions. 

I'm not saying that Malky should be witch hunted and ostracised for the rest of his life, especially if he can bring himself to release a statement with a bit more remorse and humility, I'm just saying that it is unlikely that he will get another top job in professional football - and he only has himself to blame. Irrespective of whether there are other such people in the sport who haven't been "outed". 

Even if football is much more like this than clubs and officials would like us to believe and there are many Malky's, it would still be a complete PR disaster for any club that employed him, he is damaged goods. There will be a club somewhere willing to give him a second chance in the future, Swindon gave them to Di Canio and Ranger, Oldham gave one to Lee Hughes. But I doubt we will ever see him managing a Premier League club again, and I hope that we don't see him here.

Look at how many talented young black and dual-heritage players we have at our club! "Not many white faces" in our FA Youth Cup winning team? Treating black players any differently to white players is discriminating on the grounds of race = racism.

Nobody is saying that he is a member of the National Front and walking around making Nazi salutes, but if the allegations from the Somali player are true then would we ever want him anywhere near our talented young multi-cultural team? I wouldn't! 

 

[Josh]

Well put 

 

[lyb]

You think making racist comments is on par with a dodgy expenses claim.

Think you're going back to the IS is bad and this is bad, view of the world. No it's not on a par. They're all things that people have lost their jobs for when they're in the public eye where they more than likely wouldn't if they weren't in the public eye, although funnily enough they probably would be more likely to be held to account for the dodgy expenses in normal life.

 

[Andy]

I would like to think that Malky is not a racist but has made a grave error of judgement which he now sincerely regrets. I'd like to think that Malky abhors racism and is genuinely sorry for ill advised comments that he made, in private, which in no way reflect his personal views. I would like to have seen an unreserved apology from him for the obvious offence that his remarks have caused.

However, the statement issued by the LMA seeks to trivialise the issue and offer a weak apology "if" any offence has been caused. This, to me, speaks volumes about both Malky's and the LMA's attitude towards the use of casual racist language, sadly shared by some posters on here.

 

[skijumptoes]

Funny how if Bobby Robson was quoted as using 'wee egyptian' to refer to a player it would be seen as quant or a funny character - somethings changed over the years and it's not in the way people think or talk, it's in the way people react to it in a ridiculously sensationalist way.  And it's all due to the advent of the internet and people crapping themselves that something they write can be recalled or questioned.  The conversations we're having on here, most of us 20 years ago would be sat in a pub having them and they would be air within seconds of being uttered.  That, radically changes how many communicate, and means the average joe now has to have an element of media savviness.

Taken out of context no doubt, who else had nicknames at the club, most i'd imagine.  Is it ok to relentlessly laugh at Paul McVeigh being short?  It was also something he was born into and can't change.  Heard him referred to as a leprechaun too, but that's ok.  I really can't see the offence in calling someone a wee egyptian.  Honestly i just can't?!

Dare i say it, i see it as a term of endearment.  And it is just banter, nothing more.

 

[lyb]

There was a young Somalian player on twitter who last night claimed that Malky would constantly refer to him as the "wee Egyptian" on the training pitch, despite the fact that he was actually Welsh born and of Somalian heritage. He went on to claim that as they were getting off a coach at an away game he pointed at a random young Somalian kid and said "look that's *players name* little brother" before laughing his head off in front of the squad and coaches. The player seemed to suggest that all of the young black players were subjected to similar "banter" from Malky. 

If that's true then he deserves to be brought to account for that. Should be a much higher priority than some private messages that should never have seen the light of day.

 

[Canaryboy]

 I really can't see the offence in calling someone a wee egyptian.  Honestly i just can't?!

It probably wouldn't be offensive if he was Egyptian.

Would it be acceptable for a manager to start calling Jermaine Defoe (English born, St. Lucian mother and Dominican father) "little Nigerian"? 

And then pointing to a little black kid and saying "Look there's Jermaine's little brother", before laughing his head off?

 

[skijumptoes]

....is that not simply just a windup then?  I can't see how it's racist/offensive.

 

[Josh]

Funny how if Bobby Robson was quoted as using 'wee egyptian' to refer to a player it would be seen as quant or a funny character 

Well this is just a massive hypothetical.

somethings changed over the years and it's not in the way people think or talk, it's in the way people react to it in a ridiculously sensationalist way.  And it's all due to the advent of the internet and people crapping themselves that something they write can be recalled or questioned.  

What's changed over the years is exactly how people think and talk. People say less racist and homophobic and sexist stuff because people, mainly younger generations, appreciate that in the modern world they're unacceptable things to say. It's not about thinking them but not saying them out of fear of being caught - it's about not saying them altogether because they're wrong. 

The conversations we're having on here, most of us 20 years ago would be sat in a pub having them and they would be air within seconds of being uttered. 

Times change. What becomes acceptable also changes.

Is it ok to relentlessly laugh at Paul McVeigh being short?  It was also something he was born into and can't change. 

If short people have been historically discriminated against and abused in the same way people of other races and ethnicities have, you might have a point. But I don't remember short people being the victims of hate crimes. Comparing the two is fatuous. 

 I really can't see the offence in calling someone a wee egyptian.  Honestly i just can't?!

Dare i say it, i see it as a term of endearment.  And it is just banter, nothing more.

The offence, for the recipient, comes from the ignorance of just assuming he's an interchangable African. They're all the same, I guess? Egyptian, Somali, what's the difference? Why does it matter, eh? To the person receiving it, it did matter - clearly. And it's no ones place to tell him what he can't feel when he's the person on the receiving end of ignorant comments, or pointing at another black person and saying 'hey it's his brother' and laughing. They were comments clearly made/received with his ethnicity at the heart of them. Just bants though, right? 

 

[Canaryboy]

....is that not simply just a windup then?  I can't see how it's racist/offensive.

I think its offensive, yes. The kid was born and raised in Cardiff, he was Welsh with dark skin, and didn't dare submit a complaint against somebody who could make or break his career (at a time when Malky was adored by all at Cardiff). 

Just like Jacob Murphy is English, born in London. It would be offensive if Neil Adams started calling him the "little African" wouldn't it? He's a Londoner. Just like Mark Bunn, also a Londoner. 

Perhaps you could call Jamar Loza a "little Jamaican", seeing as he was born in Jamaica, and has played for Jamaica, and probably considers himself Jamaican or partially Jamaican. 

 

[lyb]

The offence, for the recipient, comes from the ignorance of just assuming he's an interchangable African. They're all the same, I guess? Egyptian, Somali, what's the difference? Why does it matter, eh? To the person receiving it, it did matter - clearly. And it's no ones place to tell him what he can't feel when he's the person on the receiving end of ignorant comments, or pointing at another black person and saying 'hey it's his brother' and laughing. They were comments clearly made/received with his ethnicity at the heart of them. Just bants though, right? 

Completely agree with you here. If he really did this then that's utterly unacceptable. 

 

[Keckers]

In the eyes of the law, the aggravation (racial in this case) is determined by the perspective of the victim, not the claimed intent of the perpetrator. If the victim feels a derogatory comment it is racially motivated,then it is dealt with as a racist incident in the eyes of the law.

This extends to non criminal activities also. Can be held to account in the workplace, education, daily life (via Civil proceedings if not criminal).

You simply cannot say these things anymore. Doesn't matter what things were like 20 or 30 years ago. Or even 10 years ago. The McPherson Inquiry started an irreversible process that is now enshrined in Criminal Law, thankfully.

This is not acceptable behaviour. Unfortunately for him, his actions over this (forgetting the financial stuff) mean he is highly unlikely to manage in Britain again. Absolute fool and good riddance to that attitude.

 

[skijumptoes]

Any nicknames i've seen given to people, or any jokes made about the appearance of someone i've never once seen someone first check their birthplace for validity - i don't see what relevance that bears on whether this is offensive or not.

The guy has 'farah' (Similarity to Pharaoh) in his name and imagine is either short, or of a small frame, and who's not to say that was the factor that saw MacKay call him 'wee egyptian' one day, and it stuck.  That's all there could be to it. It could have been a million and one other reasons that are not racist.

If you've played football yourself you will know that the alpha male in the changing room is the one who makes up these kind of names, and the rest laugh along in the hope they don't get labelled.  That's how it works, and is what most would consider banter, not a racist attack.  It's purely done on how you look, what you do, what you've said.  I think MacKay most definitely fits that Alpha Male character.

If people really believe that short people, ginger people, lanky people etc. don't take extreme offence at some of the nicknames as a dark skinned player would then they need to think again, there's a huge discrimination against small players in our youth system that see's more dreams shattered than choices made through racism.  If anyone's been involved in youth you see it across the board.

This sob story that he couldn't speak out i just don't buy personally, i see a guy who's career hasn't taken off, he's 22 played very little, and he's trying to blow this up way bigger than what it is to give himself exposure.  Every club have people in place to check on the well being of players mentality, and if it was such a huge issue at the time he could've spoken out in this age and received huge support.  It's been 2 years since he escaped the evil clutches of MacKay after all, and was only there for a matter of months under his control.

No doubt he's bitter to be dropping down into lower welsh league football, and when you're on a low banter CAN hurt, no matter what, and you take it very personally when things aren't going for you, i feel for the guy, but i just don't see this as a racist attack on his behalf to exclude him.

Your point about Jacob Murphy is that he's far more likely to be given the name 'cracker' or something because of his name... If he was just called 'little african' for no reason than being dark skinned and it was used in a derogatory way, then yes of course that is offensive. I'm also proud to think that if any of our players thought someone was being singled out unfairly they would stick by them and say something.