Dieumerci Mbokani

[Beauseant]

Blimey, denial really is more than a river in Egypt. I think you should seek some help with the Hughton thing, it seems to be eating you up

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

I think big, ugly workhorses like Mbokani are less sexy than pretty Dutch boys with the physique of a teenage girl.

Well that left me uncomfortable and questioning my sexuality!!

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

whilst players like Holt get off scot free...

Id hardly say that Indy. When Holt managed to score 'only' 8/9 goals despite Hughton's system a huge number of fans with short memories couldnt wait to use his reduced output as evidence that he was the fat over-achieving ex-tyre fitter they always suspected he was and that Norwich needed to bring in some genuine 'quality' and move beyond Holt. Someone like RvW (who I think Im a Banana was massively championing) but that most people thought was pie in the sky and beyond our reach.

Then happy days as we managed to pull off the biggest coup in football history and bring in a player with true 'quality'. So long fat ex-tyre fitter, look at our shiney new Dutchman! He'll score the goals you never did. Goalscoring debut only confirmed our certainty we'd left our League One imposters firmly in our big-boy wake.

Only after the goals dried up did a number of fans (the same ones who wrote Holt off every season) realise how well he'd done that season - outscoring RvW, Elmander and Hooper put together

 

[KeiranShikari]

Indy's account has been hijacked by RVW by the looks of it.

 

[Indy_Bones]

Blimey, denial really is more than a river in Egypt. I think you should seek some help with the Hughton thing, it seems to be eating you up

Frankly, I'm still massively pissed off with how Hughton managed to destroy the attacking, never say die team of players that Lambert got playing above their level at times, and somehow turned them into below par players whilst giving us the worst football i think I've ever seen at CR, and I doubt that I'll ever forgive the guy for doing it.

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

Frankly, I'm still massively pissed off with how Hughton managed to destroy the attacking, never say die team of players that Lambert got playing above their level at times, and somehow turned them into below par players whilst giving us the worst football i think I've ever seen at CR, and I doubt that I'll ever forgive the guy for doing it.

I wonder if the board new they would be getting that approach from Hughton when they appointed him?

Not sure about the half-season Hughton had in the Prem with Newcastle and what his approach was then, but in the Championship he'd been able to have attacking line-ups, especially with Newcastle's squad.

If the board knew, then I blame them as much as Hughton himself. At least with the appointment of Alex Neil they've moved away from the 'safe pair of hands' approach. His appointment was bold for the Championship - even bolder for the Premiership.

Lets just hope it doesnt mirror Hughton's fledgling career at Newcastle. If things go a bit pear-shaped and Neil ends up on a bad run, I wonder how long before the howls of 'we need an experienced manager' and 'the gamble hasnt paid off, he's out of his depth in the Premier League' come out. Personally, I hope he's given the whole season, even if it gets a bit hairy - unless of course we're bottom at xmas, Derby style and everything is unravelling.

I think Alex Neil will be a success this season - but we thought that of RvW

 

[GJP]

Frankly, I'm still massively pissed off with how Hughton managed to destroy the attacking, never say die team of players that Lambert got playing above their level at times, and somehow turned them into below par players whilst giving us the worst football i think I've ever seen at CR, and I doubt that I'll ever forgive the guy for doing it.

I've seen much, much worse football than Hughton dished up.

I'd have preferred more attack minded football but Hughton is one of the best managers we've had in recent years.

 

[GJP]

RvW, but in short I think he's a talented striker who could easily hit 12-15 goals a season in the prem IF we played to his strengths

How many strikers "easily" score that many goals in this league?

He hasn't got enough strings to his bow for that. It's really obvious. 

 

[Canaryboy]

I don't think its out of the question for Jerome to have a honeymoon period and hit double figures this season, he did so in 2009-10 for Birmingham after their promotion. 

Unlikely he could do that year-on-year though, he's a good player and will always grab the odd worldie from long range but he's no Benteke. 10 goals would be a decent return from him as long as the midfielders pull their weight and the other strikers can grab a few goals. 

It depends on how we set out to play though really, we'll inevitably be keeping it tight and trying to steal a goal on the counter against any team who is clearly better than us, gung-ho free flowing football like we often saw last season isn't going to be on the menu too often in this league. 

 

[morty]

Frankly, I'm still massively pissed off with how Hughton managed to destroy the attacking, never say die team of players that Lambert got playing above their level at times, and somehow turned them into below par players whilst giving us the worst football i think I've ever seen at CR, and I doubt that I'll ever forgive the guy for doing it.

Its a well trodden path though, seen time and time again from promoted clubs, playing with no fear and a "you score two, and we'll score three" attitude, in the first season. In that first season you are a bit of an unknown quantity, an underdog, no one expects you to succeed, and that can be used to motivate a team.

This is why teams often have a difficult second season, theres a lot more expectation, and the opposition know a bit more about your players.

In a lot of ways Lambert got lucky that first season, and very much had momentum and team spirit on his side, but it was obvious that upgrades were needed, that we had to adjust to life in the Premiership, and adjust our style of play, because the surprise of gung ho was gone.

In some ways I feel sorry for Hughton, he bought what everyone was predicting to be the striking bargain of the season, and it frankly couldn't have gone worse for Ricky. We literally put all our eggs in one basket with him. And the board effectively sealed Hughton's fate, by giving him virtually no money to spend in his last transfer window.

So, do I blame Hughton for how he had to do things, and how it all panned out? No, he had to cut his cloth accordingly.

 

[Indy_Bones]

   So, do I blame Hughton for how he had to do things, and how it all panned out? No, he had to cut his cloth accordingly.

I agree with much of your post Morty, but this is the bit I just can't agree with.

It wasn't that we didn't have good enough players, nor was it a lack of financial support, it was simply the god awful style of play and approach to the game that Hughton chose to use that caused his - and the clubs downfall.

You simply do not sign an 8.5mil goal poacher and then insist that he plays like bloody Drogba instead! You don't insist that despite having TWO wingers, that the team focus 70% of their passing down one side (Snoddy), you don't insist that we spend most of the game playing defensively and then counter attack with such lack of speed that their entire backline AND midfield are able to deal with it before your central midfielders have even pushed up to support, you don't spent every interview waxing lyrical about the quality of your opposition instead of showing clear faith in YOUR team and players, and you don't blame all of these mistakes on the finances provided by the board, when in truth virtually NONE of the issues we had under Hughton were down to this.

The guy couldn't organise a coherent, attacking side even if someone gave him a ready made one - even if you put him in charge of Real Madrid, within a couple of months Ronaldo would be playing right wing back, Rodriguez would be dropped as he won't want unnecessary flair players and the furthest player forward on an attack would probably be Navas - and he's the bloody keeper ffs!

 

[Beauseant]

Its a well trodden path though, seen time and time again from promoted clubs, playing with no fear and a "you score two, and we'll score three" attitude, in the first season. In that first season you are a bit of an unknown quantity, an underdog, no one expects you to succeed, and that can be used to motivate a team.

This is why teams often have a difficult second season, theres a lot more expectation, and the opposition know a bit more about your players.

In a lot of ways Lambert got lucky that first season, and very much had momentum and team spirit on his side, but it was obvious that upgrades were needed, that we had to adjust to life in the Premiership, and adjust our style of play, because the surprise of gung ho was gone.

In some ways I feel sorry for Hughton, he bought what everyone was predicting to be the striking bargain of the season, and it frankly couldn't have gone worse for Ricky. We literally put all our eggs in one basket with him. And the board effectively sealed Hughton's fate, by giving him virtually no money to spend in his last transfer window.

So, do I blame Hughton for how he had to do things, and how it all panned out? No, he had to cut his cloth accordingly.

That's pretty much how I see it. Hughton's "awful football" got us our highest finish in 20 years (but of course clubs were "on the beach", an argument that strangely got sidelined when fans were trying to eulogise Adams' bore draw at Stamford bridge.....). Yes, it was turgid and boring but with an expensive striker who couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo and a lack of creativity in midfield as the man bought to provide it, Leroy Fer, lounged in his metaphorical deckchair it was always going to be that way.

 

[morty]

I agree with much of your post Morty, but this is the bit I just can't agree with.

It wasn't that we didn't have good enough players, nor was it a lack of financial support, it was simply the god awful style of play and approach to the game that Hughton chose to use that caused his - and the clubs downfall.

You simply do not sign an 8.5mil goal poacher and then insist that he plays like bloody Drogba instead! You don't insist that despite having TWO wingers, that the team focus 70% of their passing down one side (Snoddy), you don't insist that we spend most of the game playing defensively and then counter attack with such lack of speed that their entire backline AND midfield are able to deal with it before your central midfielders have even pushed up to support, you don't spent every interview waxing lyrical about the quality of your opposition instead of showing clear faith in YOUR team and players, and you don't blame all of these mistakes on the finances provided by the board, when in truth virtually NONE of the issues we had under Hughton were down to this.

The guy couldn't organise a coherent, attacking side even if someone gave him a ready made one - even if you put him in charge of Real Madrid, within a couple of months Ronaldo would be playing right wing back, Rodriguez would be dropped as he won't want unnecessary flair players and the furthest player forward on an attack would probably be Navas - and he's the bloody keeper ffs!

Didn't Snoddy score 10 goals that season though? And yes, the board hung him out a bit in the January window.

I'm not saying he was perfect, but your last paragraph is slightly unfair. Birmingham played attractive football, I don't remember Newcastle fans bemoaning his style of play, the only criticism I heard was his use of subs. And that moan about how he addresses press conferences is plain semantics, its what he says in the dressing room to the players that counts.

We were always going to struggle with one of the smallest budgets in the division, and yes, it was a mistake buying Ricky, wrong player in the wrong position, but as I said, all the independent press were hailing him as the bargain of the season.

Were the players good enough? Possibly. But if we are all entirely honest with ourselves, we overrate our own players, every football fan is maybe a wee bit guilty of that.

If we had beaten West Brom then we maybe wouldn't be having this conversation! (Though I do think Hughton would have gone in the summer anyway.

However, we are taking this thread wildly off course, if Mr Hughton needs further discussion, you should start a thread!

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

The guy couldn't organise a coherent, attacking side even if someone gave him a ready made one - even if you put him in charge of Real Madrid, within a couple of months Ronaldo would be playing right wing back, Rodriguez would be dropped as he won't want unnecessary flair players and the furthest player forward on an attack would probably be Navas - and he's the bloody keeper ffs!

Agree with what was said previous, but not too sure about this bit. Hughton was charged with survival and clearly didnt rate the players he inherited and set the team up to play the way it did because his perception was that we were inferior to the opposition (which we were) but were incapable of giving them a bloody nose (which we werent) so he se the team up to defend in numbers and play with fear. This was all down to his assessment of the capabilities of the squad.

If you gave him a team of World beaters and charged him with winning the league, realistically his focus would change. Whether he would have the nous to utilise attacking attributes effectively is another matter, and he could find the defensive slackness intolerable and go on a quest to put that right first, but realistically, tell him he's got the best team in the league, he's not going to try to defend his way to a title. Mind you, thats arguably the Mourinho approach so maybe he would! it seems to work for the Special One

 

[ZLF]

Snodgrass got 6 prem goals for us each season and was joint top scorer in our relegation season with hooper who at least scored his penalties.  

Goals scoring desnt mean that our attacking play wasnt overbiased towards snodgrass making us easy to defend against.  That he had half the number of assists of elmander suggests what a folly that bias was.

Bizarre fact of the day is that hooper didnt score that season without elmander by his side.

 

[hogesar]

RvW simply doesn't offer enough to be a Premier League striker. I'm basing that on his season with us under Hughton and his season in France.

Mbokani kind of represents the type of striker we need for a club at our level. A physical battler who'll try and shake up defences and knock in a few goals too.

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

Snodgrass got 6 prem goals for us each season and was joint top scorer in our relegation season with hooper who at least scored his penalties.

Goals scoring desnt mean that our attacking play wasnt overbiased towards snodgrass making us easy to defend against.  That he had half the number of assists of elmander suggests what a folly that bias was.

Snodgrass was simultaneously our greatest attacking strength and weakness. What he did himself when he scored goals was vital. But what we sacrificed in playing him probably cost more than the benefit of having him on the right wing. Good player, but for me the wrong player to have on the wing. When Hughton first acquired him he played him in the hole (bit like he did with Fer) though quickly abandoned this. Snoddy's attributes would have made more impact in the Wes position IMO, which considering he was reluctant to play Wes there makes it all the more puzzling. General reluctance to play anyone there? Not willing to sacrifice any of his many defensive players?

 

[CanaryNath]

so, back to Mbokani....

how many games did he play last year, and how any goals did he score? 

 

[Canaryboy]

Is it likely that Mbokani has been recommended by Mulumbu? 

 

[Canaryboy]

I know that a season of football condensed into a few minutes can make any professional footballer look top class, but this video does make him look a bit good...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zanMCGMqvu8