How much would it cost to build a new stadium?

[The Great Mass Debater]

As I have come clean about before, I was a Leeds Utd season ticket holder for the 01/02 season (I think, when Leeds had Rio, were top at xmas but ultimately failed to re-qualify for the Champions League, which was said to be the start of Leeds' debt problems. This was shortly after I moved to Leeds for University and adopted Leeds as part of my 'fresh start')

During this season (before the Leeds bubble had burst and noone knew there was a problem, and Leeds were spending 9m on players like Seth Johnson) there was a season ticket holder vote on whether to build a new 50k seater stadium to replace Elland Road at a cost of £50m. It was overwhelmingly backed, but of course never went ahead.

I am originally from near Derby, and remember when Derby built Pride Park in 1997 I think. It was for a reported £30m (only a season or so after they'd spent 7m on a new stand at the Baseball Ground). Middlesbrough had built the Riverside stadium a few seasons before (which apart from a few minor details) is identical to Pride Park. This was for a reported £20m.

These days though, stadia seem to be being built for amounts way more than this, which is something I've never understood. In our talks about redeveloping Carrow Road, the figure of 20-30m has been discussed for redeveloping the City Stand.

Now even though I am a fan who doesnt go to Church and I could be accused of the stadium representing little more than vanity for me, I actually wouldnt want to see Norwich move. I have been to Carrow Road of course and I like the stadium and there is something soul-less about the new grounds, despite their undoubted facilities.

I was just left wondering how much it would cost Norwich to build a new and bigger stadium. Anyone have any insight?

 

[Canaryboy]

Part of the reason why it costs more these days is the huge increase in the price of development land, which is only ever going to become more scarce. 

Plus in this country we have a habit of massively underestimating the costs of major building projects. It wouldn't be untypical for a project estimated at £50m to end up cost £100m. They probably fail to account for the 10 cups of tea a day that the average British construction worker drinks. 

 

[Canaryboy]

Brighton's stadium holds 30,750 and cost £93m. 

It is multi use though, maybe that accounts for the bigger budgets, they want to build something with potential for additional revenue streams. Concerts etc? 

Land is probably more expensive in Brighton? £100m for a 35000 seater perhaps? 

 

[splutcho]

More than we could afford while languishing around 13th in the Championship for the next decade!

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

Part of the reason why it costs more these days is the huge increase in the price of development land, which is only ever going to become more scarce. 

Plus in this country we have a habit of massively underestimating the costs of major building projects. It wouldn't be untypical for a project estimated at £50m to end up cost £100m. They probably fail to account for the 10 cups of tea a day that the average British construction worker drinks. 

That cant be too much of the cost though. According to the tramps in Leeds city centre a cup of tea only costs 10p   :huh:

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

I figured the North/South divide was part of the reason Boro's stadium cost 20m and Arsenal's 200m (or was it 600m? Im getting confused with Wembley). I doubt Boro could get a new stadium built for £20m now though. I understand why transfer fees have inflated, but why have non-football related things (like steel and builders) seemingly gone the way of transfer fees when they have only a tenuous link to football?

Surely bricks and mortar cant cost a huge amount more than they did just 15 years ago? I mean, I remember being at school and a packet of Polos costing 15p and now 15-20 years later they cost 70p, but still, surely its not just inflation?

 

[Suffolk Canary]

A brand spanking new stadium which would obviously need to be premiership standard would probably cost nearly £100m.   And considering we can no longer sell out our 28k ground,  any developments to any part of the ground are a long long way off

 

[Suffolk Canary]

I figured the North/South divide was part of the reason Boro's stadium cost 20m and Arsenal's 200m (or was it 600m? Im getting confused with Wembley). I doubt Boro could get a new stadium built for £20m now though. I understand why transfer fees have inflated, but why have non-football related things (like steel and builder's) seemingly gone the way of transfer fees when they have only a tenuous link to football?

Surely bricks and mortar cant cost a huge amount more than they did just 15 years ago? I mean, I remember being at school and a packet of Polos costing 15p and now 15-20 years later they cost 70p, but still, surely its not just inflation?

World resources getting more and more scarce as populations grow and countries develop. prices for most things going up faster than inflation it seems

 

[Canaryboy]

I figured the North/South divide was part of the reason Boro's stadium cost 20m and Arsenal's 200m (or was it 600m? Im getting confused with Wembley). I doubt Boro could get a new stadium built for £20m now though. I understand why transfer fees have inflated, but why have non-football related things (like steel and builders) seemingly gone the way of transfer fees when they have only a tenuous link to football?

Surely bricks and mortar cant cost a huge amount more than they did just 15 years ago? I mean, I remember being at school and a packet of Polos costing 15p and now 15-20 years later they cost 70p, but still, surely its not just inflation?

This is how much you can buy a house for in Middlesbrough: http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-32769060.html

Any land suitable for development (e.g. brownfield sites) aren't attractive to property developers in places where you would struggle to give away a house. Riverside stadium is in a post-industrial wasteland and near to the red light district. 

In fact, it weren't that long ago that the area around King Street and Carrow Road was the worst bit of Norwich.

A big plot of undeveloped land in London however, is worth a hell of a lot of money. You can squeeze a ridiculous number of houses and flats on the area needed to build a football stadium. Plus Riverside Stadium was built a good 19 to 20 years ago now. 

It would be natural for the cost of building a football ground to rise in line with the residential property market really, wouldn't it? Not just due to land costs, but also the amount that construction workers can charge. A skilled tradesman is probably looking to earn £100k a year in London, but would be lucky to earn £30k in much of the north. 

Also have to take into consideration borrowing costs. No idea whether Boro had to take out finance to fund their development or paid in cash or they had a benefactor, but the bigger the stadium the bigger the loan, and the bigger the cost of servicing the debt. Interest for the duration of the loan period would form a big chunk of the total cost of the development wouldn't it?

Not sure if the estimate of £25m to £30m to redevelop the city stand was the actual cost of the construction, or the estimated total cost including interest payments on the amount of money that we'd have needed to borrow? 

 

[SussexYellow]

Ok let's go back a step - why would we want to build a new stadium?

Brighton ironically given they were today's opponents are the key case in point.

Yes they had to build a new stadium given the direness of the Withdean! So along came the Amex, capacity of 25,000ish for a city of a similiarish size to Norwich. Surely they could not sell it out, they were only getting 4,500 at the Withdean. But they did! Football is quite a big thing for the city, just like Norwich.

Sensibly they built a stadium with easy expansion options, which given they were selling out every game they quickly opted to expand to around 30,000.

The result, they can no longer sell out, tickets are always available! Next week they play Fulham at home. Local opponents, they will bring a few and people down here are getting excited because they believe they will get around 27,000.

Carrow Rd is a good stadium with good facilities. We all but sell out every game, but we do not quite sell out. On our day we can create a cracking atmosphere, and by constantly being close to capacity that is always a possibility. If we were always selling out casual tickets ahead of going on general sale I would agree we need more capacity. But at the moment we have a stadium that fits! So what is the case for change?

 

[Canaryboy]

Ok let's go back a step - why would we want to build a new stadium?

Brighton ironically given they were today's opponents are the key case in point.

Yes they had to build a new stadium given the direness of the Withdean! So along came the Amex, capacity of 25,000ish for a city of a similiarish size to Norwich. Surely they could not sell it out, they were only getting 4,500 at the Withdean. But they did! Football is quite a big thing for the city, just like Norwich.

Sensibly they built a stadium with easy expansion options, which given they were selling out every game they quickly opted to expand to around 30,000.

The result, they can no longer sell out, tickets are always available! Next week they play Fulham at home. Local opponents, they will bring a few and people down here are getting excited because they believe they will get around 27,000.

Carrow Rd is a good stadium with good facilities. We all but sell out every game, but we do not quite sell out. On our day we can create a cracking atmosphere, and by constantly being close to capacity that is always a possibility. If we were always selling out casual tickets ahead of going on general sale I would agree we need more capacity. But at the moment we have a stadium that fits! So what is the case for change?

I don't think we need a new stadium, I'd be worried that we'd lose our soul. Carrow Road is our spiritual home a big part of our clubs identity. 

Ideally we'd have capacity of 30,000 - would be nice to have a larger city stand, and I'm sure it could improve the acoustics (knocking down that dreadful hotel and building a corner stand would also improve the acoustics, and the 'feel'). 

Plus I'm sure that moving the ground away from the train station and a good range of quality hotels (and outside of walking distance from the city centre) could itself impact on our attendances. Our proximity to the train station make it feasible for people all over East Anglia and beyond to attend games. 

 

[Suffolk Canary]

^Exactly.   The location of Carrow Road is better than any ground I've been to on my away trips. Easy to get something cheap to eat in Morinsons, some shops to wonder around,  and for away fans/travelling canaries it's a dream with the train station so close.  

An upper tier or expansion of the City stand would be quite nice, but it would be utterly pointless if we're not in the Premiership as we always have a 100/200 seats spare this season.  In the Prem, the attendances can rise rapidly.  But most of the new 'fans' would either be from sponsors or Man City/Chelsea fans from Lowestoft. 

 

[SussexYellow]

CanaryBoy - Excellent point about the proximity to the station. I take it for granted but it is absolutely vital for me to regularly attend games. Most of us travelling by train are using heavily discounted tickets by nominating the specific train we travel on. Plus being able to get a train soon after the game ends, in my case the 5:30, and even living an hours train journey south of London I can still get back home at a sensible time (before 9) and enjoy a meal with my wife.

If you add another variable of an unpredictable shuttle journey back to the station, then it would be difficult to confidently nominate a train without adding a margin of safety which would significantly add to overall journey time. Adding time, cost or both will be a disincentive to attendance.

So yes moving the ground away from the station may well impact attendances, at least from current regulars.

 

[eatonparkboy]

Are there Categorised games in the Championship?

If there are are, then that is the main reason there will not be a bigger ground. Many season ticket holders are that because they fear not being able to get one but put an extra 3-5K on the gate and they might decide to get choosy and we could lose income.

 

[TILLY]

I wonder if Tom Cavendish has registered on here yet ?

 

[splutcho]

Probably not, too busy scouting. Can't tell us who for though. Very busy man. Graces us with his presence.

 

[Moosheep]

The 35k capacity Ricoh Arena cost £113million 10 years ago, and in my opinion it never feels particularly 'well built'. Carrow Road has a certain sturdiness about it!

moo

 

[Salopian]

I don't know what it would cost to build a new stadium, but even if we could sell the land from the present one and buy a piece outside the city somewhere where land is cheaper, the sheer cost of building is well beyond us.

There are two other doubts:

• Would we be able to fill it, especially if we remain in the Championship? Would it make much sense to build say a 35,000 seater if it was never full?Even if, by some strange factor, perhaps the arrival of Phelan, we were promoted, was there much pressure for seats when we were in the Premiership before?In other words, could we be sure to sell another 8,000 to 10,000 tickets at the higher prices?
• At the moment we need to invest much more in the team. Our form at the moment suggests a relegation battle, and that some of our vaunted players really will never be top two championship, and currently often do not look even championship quality. I will not mention too many, but some of our summer signings were a waste of money - Grabban, Hooiveld, Miguel, Cuellar, and others. These may be out of form currently, but they have not produced much for us. (I am aware that Miguel hasn't yet been picked for the first team.)

The plan produced on McNally's arrival included a period of consolidation in the Championship, and signing players who could blossom after promotion. This went out of the window with our very quick second promotion under Lambert, and we had to invest in a number of cheap signings, which has continued since. (Admittedly the one higher price player we did sign, RvW, proved to be a disappointment.) Currently we are a team without a stand-out player with ability virtually to win a match on his own. We have too many journeymen players, and it is a struggle.

 

[Boyerboy]

The Brighton details given by Sussex also illustrate another very serious issue for City. It is simple but devastating economics.

One of our key strengths is the sale of season tickets.  That guarantees income and also bums on seats for pies and programmes.

People buy season tickets for many reasons but one reason at Norwich is that it is the only way you can guarantee a seat.  Now, if we had a 35,000 seater stadium and 27,000 attending, there would always be seats available.  No need to buy a season ticket to guarantee getting in.  So, season ticket sales will fall.  No waiting list either,  Then, if you've actually got to pay cash to see Rotherham on a wet Tuesday, some people won't bother.

At best the effect is unreliable income which makes financial planning more difficult.  At worse, season ticket sales plummet and attendances dip at less glamorous matches.   Scarcity has significant fiscal advantages and should not be lightly discounted.