Hypothetically....

[Watling the Gnome]

It's early season 2013-14 and we're at home to Aston Villa.

We win a penalty.  RvW picks up the ball, and Robert Snodgrass snatches it off him.  So far, so blah.  But....

Bassong intervenes, tells Snodgrass to poke it, and throws the ball back to RvW.

RvW scores, we win 2-1.  (Snodgrass whinges and moans but nobody notices because that's what he always does.  He gets over it, and even smiles at the Snake Pit.)

RvW ends up with eight goals in the season, and we stay up with 42 points.

Hughton and the coaching team keep their jobs.  We remain lower level Premier League.

----------------------------------

Who'd swap that scenario for our current reality, and why/why not?

 

[splutcho]

Yeah I'd take that. Just simply because we'd still be in the top flight, which is what it's all about and what the whole point of this season is.

 

[Canaryboy]

I know that it is just hypothetical but I think we just need to forget about last season and stop trying to find excuses, it is highly unlikely that RVW taking that penalty would have radically changed our season. Hughton got it wrong in the transfer market and didn't have enough faith in his players, we played dull negative football and didn't stay up because we didn't have the bottle to go out there and attack games.

What would probably have happened if RVW had taken that penalty is that he'd have finished the season with 2 goals in 27 instead of 1 goal in 27, we'd have finished with 35 points instead of 33, and so we'd still be where we are now. 

Where we'd be if the board had sacked Hughton in December and invested a bit of money in a decent striker in January (perhaps Jelavic or Long, who both went to Hull) is a better question. That one would depend on who we'd appointed to replace Hughton, and perhaps that wouldn't have ended well either - because we'd probably have appointed Malky Mackay. 

 

[morty]

I don't think Hughton would have kept his job regardless. I suspect the board already had plans to get shot of him if we had scraped up.

They thought all along, like I did, that he would do just about enough to keep us up, but recognised that the fans weren't happy with the style of football.

I think where we are this season could turn out to be a blessing in disguise (only obviously if we get promoted) and that relegation is the boot up the harris, and the catalyst for change of direction that was obviously required.

 

[Branston Pickle]

I guess you'd have to go with staying up - and in the scenario painted, ie by the skin of our teeth, it is quite probable that the board would have got shot of CH and we'd be in a completely different scenario.

Of course, you have to take what's dealt, and hopefully we can go straight back up, stronger and wiser.

An alternative scenario is one where some of our late winners hadn't gone in during our promotion season, we'd have got in the play-offs at best and could well have been sat n the Champs ever since....

 

[Tomasz Blazak]

I'm enjoying not being in the Premier League. Novelty of playing the big boys was over after Season 1, and aside from that, what else is there? Potentially scraping into the Europa is realistically the best we could hope for.Aside from that, there's the odd decent day when we beat a top team, but there were more miserable football weekends than enjoyable ones, by a long way.

Football is more fun in the Champs too imo, as in the Prem, the money involved results in pretty dull, uninspiring football with everyone outside the top 6 simply trying not lose, rather than trying to win. In the Champs, it's a bit more cavalier.

Clueless Chris' brand of anti-football actually made me apathetic to Norwich City. I've NEVER felt apathetic towards Norwich City in my entire life, even under the tenure of Roeder/Grant etc. He sucked the soul right out of the club. It now feels like our club again. 

I'm pleased we got relegated to be honest. It's nice to be winning a few more games, but more importantly it's nice to watch a Norwich team playing the Norwich way.

The sooner the top 4 or 5 teams p*** off to form a new European super league, the better. The Prem is no longer competitive, and therefore it's not much fun for anyone who doesn't support the big boys, in my opinion anyway.

 

[Watling the Gnome]

I know that it is just hypothetical but I think we just need to forget about last season and stop trying to find excuses

A strange response as I wasn't trying to "find excuses". It is a simple 'what if?'

I am enjoying not being in the PL, and hope we can galvanise the team (and club) into a more positive approach the next time we get promoted.

For that reason I prefer where we are to the 'what if?' outlined above.

 

[Canaryboy]

A strange response as I wasn't trying to "find excuses". It is a simple 'what if?'

I am enjoying not being in the PL, and hope we can galvanise the team (and club) into a more positive approach the next time we get promoted.

For that reason I prefer where we are to the 'what if?' outlined above.

Apologies, wasn't really referring to you specifically - just that I've seen the Snodgrass/RVW penalty issue referenced numerous times for yonks. Appreciate that you weren't really using it in that context, it is normally used to excuse RVW's poor season when in reality he just wasn't cut out for the Premier League (in my humble opinion). 

I'll try and make it up by answering your question, its a tough one to answer, this relegation could be very positive for us if we can return at first attempt with some Lambert-esque dressing room unity and a few players like Grabban and Lafferty who will have the hunger to prove themselves in the league above in the same way that Rickie Lambert and Grant Holt have done. 

If we had stayed up you have to wonder whether we'd have been simply delaying the inevitable, we stopped being a club 'on the up' and had regressed for two successive seasons, despite spending a fair bit of money. Staying up for one more year, signing more high profile players who don't fulfill their potential under a very limited manager, and then coming down in a years time with a bigger wage bill and more deadwood could have been a disaster. Equally, this relegation could be a disaster if we don't return this season or next. Is a tough question. 

Relegation is also going to give some of our talented youngsters the opportunity to develop, I'm not sure I'd trust Hughton to make the right decisions with those young players. We are stuck with Becchio (Hughton signing) whilst Chris Martin continues to prove himself to be one of the best strikers in this division, and Tom Adeyemi is only going in one direction. Nathan Redmond seemed to go backwards in his first season with us too, I trust Adams more than Hughton with repairing Redmond's confidence (if the club don't cash in).  

So I'm going to choose Championship, because I'm optimistic that we'll achieve promotion this season and will be better off for it - and we get to see our team scoring goals, get a nice change of scenery, and it is the best chance we have of seeing the players on an open top bus again. 

We also get games against Ipswich, Leeds & Wolves this season 

 

[Killiecanary]

Thorougly enjoying my Carrow Road football again.

But only for this single season though...

 

[Lake District Canary]

Its a good question.  The margins are very small as shown by the closeness of the league last year and if RVW had got his second goal with that penalty and we had picked up a point or three against Villa, it would have changed the season.  No doubt about it - and it would have given RVW some confidence, got us more points and kept us up and with Hughton still here - and us spending a lot more on transfers in this season.  

The fact that Snodgrass felt able to do what he did though was symptomatic of the weakness in Hughton's management. Hughton relies on his players to do the right thing - it was fine at Newcastle because the players were good enough to do that - but our players proved lacking in the ability to rise to the challenge to do that. That early situation last season with the penalty was an alarm signal that all was not well.   

The whole premise of the way Hughton manages is to give the team a shape and then rely on the players to be able to express themselves within that.   Ours couldn't do it and little things like the penalty incident showed that there were problems.    That is not defending Hughton or attacking the players - it is simply a fact that Hughton's style relies on players to take the responsibility to sort things out - and the Snodgrass/RVW incident showed that players were not up to that.  Snodgrass simply took the responsibility - but in a bad way. 

Having said that, it was just a really difficult two years for everyone - management/players and fans - and we have what we have now because of it.  And what do we have now?  An attacking team looking good and destined hopefully for a top of the table challenge all season, a strong squad and some good young players coming through.   Its a relief from the last two years and a positive outlook.   We were damaged by it,  but it is plain that it was temporary and that overall, the club is in good health and fighting fit.  

 

[Yellow Fever]

The margins are small, but would we be playing such exciting and entertaining football if we were in the PL?

 

[Lake District Canary]

The margins are small, but would we be playing such exciting and entertaining football if we were in the PL?

Probably not, but there is an argument that says we should do just that - play attacking football and take the consequences even if it means going down - because at the end of the day attacking football is what fans want to see, whatever division we are in.  The Hughton experiment didn't work and the football suffered, so hopefully that won't be tried again in the same way. 

 

[Warren Hill]

I doubt very much that we'd be playing attacking football, what we'd be doing is the same as half the division and that is trying to obtain 40 points. The Premier League is the place to be for financial reasons but unless there is some sort of radical change in the way that it is run, we'll never be competitive like we were back in 93. Realistically, you're going to get thumped on a fairly routine basis by the powerhouses and thus it's vital that you don't lose to those around you which leads to the sort of dour encounters we saw against the likes of West Brom last season.

Clubs like ours are pretty much destined to lose more than they win at the top table and the best we could hope for in normal circumstances is a "best of the rest" 9th placed finish. Every team from Stoke downwards lost more than they won last season, including Newcastle who finished 10th but lost exactly half their games and a total of 9 teams or nearly half the division lost half or more of their fixtures.

It's financially rewarding for the club but it's not particularly rewarding for the fans. Hughton is widely bemoaned and it's perfectly understandable why, but, once the novelty of visiting the big grounds has worn off and you realise the thankless attritional position that your club is in, the Premier League is a god-awful place for fans of clubs of our stature. All you've got is the hope you'll get to 40 points and the hope you'll get the odd result against the big-boys along the way.

Makes you wonder why everybody is so keen to get back there really...

OTBC

 

[lyb]

I think that by being relegated, we've got a great platform for what shows every sign of being a quality manager getting his feet under the table and refining a squad to a level where we can go back into the Premier League a stronger beast than when we arrived in the Premier League last time. That analysis is dependent on being promoted again of course, which shouldn't be taken for granted, but early signs are looking good.

The fact that Adams has had such a long, warm history with the club, also reduces the chances that he'll be snatched away when other clubs start taking an interest in him, unlike Lambert.

 

[Wiz]

Two reasons I suspect Warren:

1.  Money, loads of it.

2. Better and far more TV coverage.

 

[splutcho]

I want to get there because I want us to be the best we can be and have the best players we can play for us. It's all very well saying this and that will never happen - It definitely won't if we're not in the top flight. I do understand why people like it down here, it's exciting to win every other week. But I'd rather see us finishing in the top half of the top flight, playing in cup finals, playing in Europe. If what it takes to get there is to spend a few years grinding our way to 40 points around the bottom of the table, then so be it. If you don't aspire to be better then you never will be.

 

[Warren Hill]

I agree wholeheartedly Splutcho, we should always try and be the best that we can but while that aspiration is fine on paper, it isn't borne out in practice. How long will the fans put up with scraping to 40? As long as Villa? We had three years of it and look at the state of the fanbase by the time we got relegated. 

By definition we have to try to be the best we can be otherwise we might as well pack up now but any faith that our fanbase or any other will "put up" with being a bottom 6 Prem team for any length of time for the greater good is probably misplaced despite patience probably being the order of the day as you point out.

 

[Monty13]

I may be in the minority, I don't know, but in your scenario I would still rather get relegated.

Sometimes you have to stop, take stock and reset if you want to make real change. It's very hard to change things radically in the Prem without suffering while you're experimenting/learning. I have no doubt that had we stayed up and Hughton had stayed, the football wouldn't have changed and I'd rather be relegated than suffer any more of it. It's very similar to what happened when we were relegated to L1, although it took the 1-7 loss to properly kickstart the change.

What has happened at the club has been quite a radical overhaul in terms of background team make up. I'm not sure that could or would have happened had we stayed up, not many "PL quality" managers would have been happy to accept the system, as it appears not many at this level were either. I think the system thats been put in place, if stuck with in the long term, has the chance to bring us real long term continuity and hopefully greater success. Having a background merry go round every time we changed manager can't have been good for us (not to mention hugely financially wasteful),even if the managerial change was. 

I've been quietly optimistic since the football board, norwich way and Adams announcement and I hope we persevere with it even if Adams doesn't end up working out (and I'm fairly confident he will). There is something to be said for having a football philosophy and maintaining continuity as managers change. Swansea are the obvious example of what can be done if you maintain that continuity. I'm sure at some point they will come unstuck, as will we again if we have initial success, but I don't think it will be because of the club system, it will be because sometimes in football you can get everything right and you just don't get the luck.

I want us to play a certain way, attract a certain type of player and manager and take that philosophy into the PL for the long haul. Without that, there is very little reason to be in the PL. Otherwise all you end up doing is just enough to stay clinging to the trough with all the other runt pigs, with no regard for entertainment on offer while you do so.