I Don't Understand

[Din]

I have to say (and I'm not necessarily accusing people on here of doing this) that I do not understand this attitude that certain fans have, in which they would rather see us lose so that there is more chance of us sacking the manager, than win a game, meaning that the manager would get a bit more time. This was something that I often saw under Hughton last season, and I've seen it a couple of times so far this season as well.

Now last season under Hughton, particularly in the second half of the campaign, I like many other supporters wanted Hughton to leave. However, my underlying feeling towards Hughton, was that I really really wanted him to do well for the club. And even if we were going into a game where we all knew as fans, that if we lost Hughton would be gone (E.g West Ham at home, Hull at home, Sunderland at home), I would still want us to win the game, just so that there was a chance that we would go on a run and see ourselves safe. But I distinctly remember after we beat West Ham at home last season, talking to my mate, and he said "I was gutted when we scored, because I wanted us to lose so we'd get rid of Hughton". I just don't understand it. Why wouldn't you want to see your team doing well and winning games just because you don't like the manager? 

If it was down to me Adams probably would've gone a couple of weeks ago. And if he was sacked tomorrow I wouldn't complain at all. However, unlike certain fans yesterday I was delighted when we won, and I really hope that this kick starts a run that will see us climb up the table to where we should be, and I just don't get why certain supporters wouldn't want the manager to do well, regardless of the circumstances. 

 

[morty]

I am of the opinion that although I'm not entirely sure Adams is capable of it, the best result for everyone is that he turns it round, and makes a success of things.

 

[Dubai Mark]

I will never want Norwich City to lose regardless of any circumstance....I do not even predict a defeat or bet against us, just doesnt feel right. I tend to agree with your comment Morty, although am of the view that any success we will get this season now will be despite having NA as manager...thats just how I feel right now....

 

[morty]

I will never want Norwich City to lose regardless of any circumstance....I do not even predict a defeat or bet against us, just doesnt feel right. I tend to agree with your comment Morty, although am of the view that any success we will get this season now will be despite having NA as manager...thats just how I feel right now....

Kinda "if we do well its down to Phelan, but do badly its Adams' fault" kinda thing?

 

[Monty13]

I will never want Norwich City to lose regardless of any circumstance....I do not even predict a defeat or bet against us, just doesnt feel right. I tend to agree with your comment Morty, although am of the view that any success we will get this season now will be despite having NA as manager...thats just how I feel right now....

What a ridiculous statement, ANY success...will be despite having Adams as manager.

I must have missed our stint at the bottom of the table before Phelans arrival. And the fact that Adams had nothing to do with our early season form.

There's literally no point debating with people who make statements like that.

 

[Canaryboy]

that I do not understand this attitude that certain fans have, in which they would rather see us lose so that there is more chance of us sacking the manager, than win a game, meaning that the manager would get a bit more time. 

Well I'm one of those people who openly said that I was wondering whether we'd be best off losing the Wigan game (although it wasn't an expression of wish, it was an open ended question more than anything). Now that we've won it, I hope that we can find some sort of form and go on a run.  There is a good chance that we'll look back at this Wigan game as a defining moment in our season. Maybe for positive reasons, and maybe for negative reasons. 

I don't think it is too difficult to understand though, considering last season and the way that Hughton found a short-lived run of good form which saved his job in January but possibly resulted in our relegation (although, perhaps he'd have found another win in those final 5 games).

Our victory against Bolton at home was followed by a spanking away to Middlesbrough and a defeat to a team who hadn't won in 10, so lets not get too carried away, the league table tells us that Wigan are the second worst team in this division and there was little evidence yesterday to suggest that the league table is lying. 

 

[morty]

I would throw into this debate that a new manager doesn't offer any guarantee that things will improve.

 

[Canaryboy]

I would throw into this debate that a new manager doesn't offer any guarantee that things will improve.

True, especially if our board is doing the interviewing. 

 

[morty]

True, especially if our board is doing the interviewing. 

Regardless of what you may think of the board, could anyone realistically expect a new manager to come in and win his first game, and the one after that etc?

There will always be the bedding in period where he stamps his own methods etc on the squad.

Sure, we could get lucky and it all clicks within a few games, but we could just as easily not.

 

[Canaryboy]

Regardless of what you may think of the board, could anyone realistically expect a new manager to come in and win his first game, and the one after that etc?

There will always be the bedding in period where he stamps his own methods etc on the squad.

Sure, we could get lucky and it all clicks within a few games, but we could just as easily not.

I don't have any major problem with our board, we could do a lot worse, although I don't understand what Stephen Fry brings to the table and Alan Bowkett made a faux-pas with his "looking all around Europe" comment, which was either tragic if true, or patronising if not. The £1000 a day bonus paid to David McNally in a disastrous season is also highly questionable, usually a bonus is performance related?  Just pointing out that I don't think Adams is an improvement on Hughton, and Hughton was certainly no improvement on Lambert. 

Yesterday we saw first hand how a new manager often needs time and doesn't always benefit from a honeymoon period. Malky doesn't have his first win at Wigan yet and they look a team very short on confidence. 

But it is actually my belief that a manager needs time which leads me to believe that the board shouldn't leave it too late to pull the trigger on Adams if we don't know show improved form, because I'd want any new manager to be given the second half of the season (and preferably the January transfer window) to start the process of building the team that could take us back up next season.

Last season I feel that we paid the price for being so indecisive at this same stage in the season. I'd like to think that the next 4 games decide his fate (taking us to the end of this month) and that the board have a plan b (and hopefully plan c, and d) in mind so that we can move quickly and at least give any new manager (whether interim or permanent) an opportunity to do a little business in January (some wingers would be nice). 

Wigan may be providing us with a case study which shows how dismissal doesn't result in an instant change in fortunes, but last season they also provided a case study whereby changing their manager in November with them in mid-table gave them a play-off place and a one in four chance of promotion, which right now I'd take! 

 

[morty]

I don't have any major problem with our board, we could do a lot worse, although I don't understand what Stephen Fry brings to the table and Alan Bowkett made a faux-pas with his "looking all around Europe" comment, which was either tragic if true, or patronising if not. The £1000 a day bonus paid to David McNally in a disastrous season is also highly questionable, usually a bonus is performance related?  Just pointing out that I don't think Adams is an improvement on Hughton, and Hughton was certainly no improvement on Lambert. 

Yesterday we saw first hand how a new manager often needs time and doesn't always benefit from a honeymoon period. Malky doesn't have his first win at Wigan yet and they look a team very short on confidence. 

But it is actually my belief that a manager needs time which leads me to believe that the board shouldn't leave it too late to pull the trigger on Adams if we don't know show improved form, because I'd want any new manager to be given the second half of the season (and preferably the January transfer window) to start the process of building the team that could take us back up next season.

Last season I feel that we paid the price for being so indecisive at this same stage in the season. I'd like to think that the next 4 games decide his fate (taking us to the end of this month) and that the board have a plan b (and hopefully plan c, and d) in mind so that we can move quickly and at least give any new manager (whether interim or permanent) an opportunity to do a little business in January, even if it just involves loans in and loans out. 

Wigan may be providing us with a case study which shows how dismissal doesn't result in an instant change in fortunes, but last season they also provided a case study whereby changing their manager in November with them in mid-table gave them a play-off place and a one in four chance of promotion, which right now I'd take! 

Its never an easy decision as to when is the right time. Had we won the West Brom game last season (but likely got rid of Hughton in the summer anyway) we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Much the same as the board, and everyone else, I assumed we'd win that game, and we'd scrape up, then address the manager issue in the summer.

I think we are getting to the point where we may have left it too late already re getting shot of Adams, for reasons you state above.

Next Saturday could be very telling, and may not be quite too late....

 

[Din]

I am of the opinion that although I'm not entirely sure Adams is capable of it, the best result for everyone is that he turns it round, and makes a success of things.

That's exactly how I feel.

 

[lyb]

I just think the importance of who the manager is is over-rated. Look at Pocchetino: Did a great job at Southampton, got wooed by Tottenham, not doing so well. Lambert did a stellar job at Norwich, went to Aston Villa who weren't doing so well, and they continued not to do so well. When looking at Tottenham, they've had loads of managers through the door over the years without really cracking it. Some of our Championship rivals are going through managers like they're going out of fashion to no great avail. 

From an outsider's perspective there's just not enough information available to make rational judgements on it and, at the end of the day, I think we have a board who've got us from near oblivion to a very healthy state of affairs as an operation, even if we want to be a league higher in an ideal world. On that basis, the way I see it is the players and management are doing their best, and not doing too badly overall either even though I'm hoping it will get better to the level of the first ten games, so let the board worry about the human resources decisions.

Speculating about managerial change all the time just becomes a very distracting sideshow.

 

[Canaryboy]

That's exactly how I feel.

Well I think it is how most people feel, but whether most people believe it can or will happen is another question. I was hopeful that our dreadful run of form had ended when we beat Bolton at home, so forgive me if I'm not feeling too optimistic about a 1-0 win away to one of the leagues sh*ttest teams (not on paper, but on league position), now if we can avoid defeat at Derby and then beat Huddersfield perhaps I'll begin to regain some optimism and the feel good factor will start to come back amongst the fans and players. 

 

[Canaryboy]

Its never an easy decision as to when is the right time. Had we won the West Brom game last season we wouldn't even be having this conversation. 

Very true, but likewise we may not have been having this conversation if we'd not beaten West Brom in early December. 

 

[Din]

Well I think it is how most people feel, but whether most people believe it can or will happen is another question. I was hopeful that our dreadful run of form had ended when we beat Bolton at home, so forgive me if I'm not feeling too optimistic about a 1-0 win away to one of the leagues sh*ttest teams (not on paper, but on league position), now if we can avoid defeat at Derby and then beat Huddersfield perhaps I'll begin to regain some optimism and the feel good factor will start to come back amongst the fans and players. 

I completely agree, and I never originally said that it was the majority of fans that were hoping we'd lose games. I know full well that the majority of fans want us to win every game regardless of the circumstances.

The opening statement wasn't a pop at you at all btw, just in case you were thinking that. It was motivated by something I saw on Twitter earlier, not from anyone on here.

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

I suppose it depends on whether you are thinking about the fortunes of the club in a long term sense or the short term. You could look at it in terms of austerity measures - if you feel that overall that it is important the country goes in the right direction, you will endure hardship on the promise you will see a return later. And you probably vote conservative and get your loans at 5% APR. However if you concentrate directly on what is in front of you, then you probably borrow at poor rates from Wonga to ease the current burden and vote labour.

I think people are happy to see the club lose if it fits their overall strategy - if they feel the clubs fortunes in the long term are best served by a change in manager, anything that achieves that aim, no matter how difficult will be welcome - even the club losing in the short term. This is based on the belief that the return will be better than what you went through.

I suppose it all depends on how fixed your views are on the manager. If you are intransient he is the wrong man, you'll probably never be happy until he goes and will be happy about anything which may bring the change you desire.

However if you are more open minded about the manager, then you are more interested in what happens in front of you. You have no agenda or interest in the politics, you just want your team to win.

I think it divides fans into two groups - those who have made their mind up and will disregard anything on the pitch, and those whose opinion on the manager is malleable and concentrate more on what happens on the pitch than the politics.

Think it purely comes down to your personality and outlook on life. Think back to Wiz's famous 'Beating West Ham will relegate us' thread last year. Ultimately Wiz was probably right. But thats a whole other can of worms...

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

Just a disclaimer before anyone gets upset, my labour conservative analogy references the difference in opinion between the parties on how to deal with the financial crisis. For the Tories it was cut and grit your teeth, for Labour it was borrow more and spend your way out of trouble...

 

[Yellow Fever]

IMO, it's not just the manager, but the management team (ie. Adams, Holt and Phelan) and  we need to remember that the Robson sacking left us short at a key period. Having Phelan come in has filled that gap and Huddersfield will be an indication of whether that new team can move us forward for the rest of the season. My hope is that it will and that we can kick on now.

 

[Canaryboy]

I suppose it depends on whether you are thinking about the fortunes of the club in a long term sense or the short term. You could look at it in terms of austerity measures - if you feel that overall that it is important the country goes in the right direction, you will endure hardship on the promise you will see a return later. And you probably vote conservative and get your loans at 5% APR. However if you concentrate directly on what is in front of you, then you probably borrow at poor rates from Wonga to ease the current burden and vote labour.

The problem with this analogy is that our national debt has increased more in the past 4 years than it did in the 13 years previous under Labour, because the Conservatives strategy was reliant on a growth in tax revenues which were overly optimistic. Labour's plan was to borrow in order to try and stimulate growth and increase tax revenues. Both had the same objective, to decrease the deficit. One by increasing income, one by decreasing expenditure. 

A better analogy would be whether we stick with Adams in the sheer hope that our performance improves sufficiently whilst cutting our costs (Conservative strategy) but may find that it doesn't, or take a punt on investing in in an experienced manager in the belief that it would improve performance and result in prosperity (promotion), but may find that it doesn't and could backfire financially (Labour strategy). Both options involve not much more than a massive gamble, and both have the possibility of worsening our position (debt could increase as a result of sticking with Adams and failing to win promotion, debt could increase even further by shelling out on a big name manager and investing in the squad, without promotion). Both are a risk, and the failure of either is a disaster. 

Lets remember that the Tories promised to wipe out the deficit over this 5 year parliament. Instead they merely halved it, from £150bn to £72bn, which is higher than it was for all but 1 of Labour's 13 years in power, and we ironically voted out one of the few chancellors we've ever had who had successfully run a budget surplus for multiple consecutive years (before Tony Blair got us into an expensive war, which put paid to that).