In or Out?

[Watling the Gnome]

I would give him three more games. We are in a slump but certainly not out of contention yet, and this may be one of those spells that every Championship side has from time to time. Neil has started well and deserves a chance to show he can lift us out of a slump, and i think he will get time given how firmly the board pinned their hopes on him.

However, I would be scouring all of Europe for the best possible candidate now.

The question isn't so much "can we afford to sack him?" as "will a change make things better?" you have to say the track record of the club in replacing managers is the odd stroke of inspiration amongst general failure.

 

[Canaryboy]

Boyerboy, I really expected Adams to have a few more strings to his bow.

He went into this season with a very big squad, and I really expected him to use that squad to greater effect. Like Lambert used to. I expected him to come with plenty of great ideas, be willing to change things up frequently, introduce multiple systems. To put full faith in all of his players and not be afraid to make radical changes after a poor performance. Squad rotation if you like, foster an environment where reserve players are biting at the bit for an opportunity and every member of the 11 knows that one bad game and they are out of the team.

I think we've seen the opposite. He has stubbornly stuck with the same old 4-2-3-1 most weeks, has continued to pick out of form players despite having capable reserves, and less than halfway into the season already seems to have discarded players who you'd have thought were good enough to make a contribution this season. How many Championship teams have a deputy left back as good as Garrido on the books? The club probably want rid of him, but we are paying him at the moment, use him! 

He seems devoid of ideas, has left us seriously short of wide players (which as a former winger I find almost as bizarre as Bryan Gunn signing the worst goalkeeper in our history), and doesn't have the mettle to drop certain players no matter how badly they perform. Contrast that to Lambert, who twice dropped Grant Holt for long periods. Some of his decisions I find really strange. The time that we lined up with an out of form Lewis Grabban on the left wing one example. We had Garrido available, he is left footed, and Olsson often plays on the left wing for Sweden. We also had Elliott Bennett available, who could have played on the right with Redmond on the left.

Just one example of course, but Lewis Grabban on the left wing? Is that really preferred to bringing Garrido or Bennett into the team? 

He has brought in 10 players, and only 3 have become regulars in our team. All three are strikers. How can a manager sign three centre backs, and then deem none of them good enough to actually play? It has taken a 4-0 defeat to give one of them a chance. He can't claim not to have been backed in the transfer market, has he signed players for the sake of it or is he effectively admitting that he has got these signings wrong? It is a huge waste of resources, which could have been used to greater effect on a player or two who could actually have made a big difference to our team. 

Why did he need to sign three centre backs, seriously, why? In this league if you get an injury you can bring a player in on loan at almost any point in the season. I think they have made 6 league appearances between them. How much have we paid them per game I wonder, and is this any different to the time that we paid Steve Walsh a ludicrous amount of money to play reserve team football?

I really like the man, I even feel a bit sorry for him. In the post match interviews he looks absolutely gutted, and exhausted, but what we are doing at the moment isn't working and he doesn't seem to have any idea how to change things. He looks like a defeated man already, like Peter Grant in 2007. I feel sorry for him I really do, but I don't think we should let sentiment cloud our judgement, he is massively underachieving and the majority of fans have lost confidence in him already. 

 

[kirku]

We all disagree with team selections but there has been nothing really wrong with his teams. He makes early and bold substitutions.

Not sure about this at all. Hoolahan at LM? Martin CB with Whittaker RB? Grabban LW? Those players in those positions are known duds. Shoehorning players into a side does not make an effective team.

As for his bold substitutions, what about bringing on Hooper on for Tettey at Boro? How was that going help?

 

[Yellowfuture]

My dissapoinment with Neil is matched by my dissapoinment with a number of our players who IMO are not giving 100% in games. The remarks by Gary O'Neil were rather telling yesterday! What I can't understand is that with such a big squad there should be huge competitiion for places which you would hope would be pushing players to give their best every game. My only conclusion is that the squad is not being managed properly and this element of competition for places is not being best used. The back four is a glaring example of this.

 

[Canaryboy]

My dissapoinment with Neil is matched by my dissapoinment with a number of our players who IMO are not giving 100% in games. The remarks by Gary O'Neil were rather telling yesterday! What I can't understand is that with such a big squad there should be huge competitiion for places which you would hope would be pushing players to give their best every game. My only conclusion is that the squad is not being managed properly and this element of competition for places is not being best used. The back four is a glaring example of this.

Agree with this completely. Those out of the team lose motivation and confidence when they see the players in the team performing so poorly, yet are still not given an opportunity. This was one of Lamberts biggest strengths, and one of Hughton's biggest weaknesses. I expected Adams to be a little more Lambert and a little less Hughton than he is. 

 

[SussexYellow]

I greeted Neil's appointment with a raised eyebrow, but was willing to give him time to convince me of his credentials, but I find myself truly wondering if he knows how to get the best out of our, pretty decent squad.

Too much playing players out of position just to accommodate them, for me. He has had enough time now to work the players and the system out.

I honestly can't see him improving quick enough to warrant the gamble.

This pretty much sums up my position. Although I had a somewhat stronger reaction than just raising an eyebrow on his appointment. However after a few days I reasoned give him a chance. But I always thought it was a huge gamble.
However he has no experience of how to turn round a slump in form and it would be a triumph of hope over reason to expect him now to rediscover a winning formula.

As Ricardo says now is not the time to dally.

Also a poor performance against Brighton and we might just see an ugly crowd reaction. Better avoided I feel.

So sadly, and actually with some regret it's an out from me.

 

[Leedscanary]

Is he still here?

 

[splutcho]

To whoever said that managers make very little difference, that really isn't true. A manager was the difference between the same Man Utd squad going from Champions to 7th in one season. Or like us going from getting smashed 7-1 to winning the title.

 

[Canaryboy]

If the board were to give Adams more time, how much more time should he get and what should his points target be? 

If he were to get the next four games, three of which are at home:

Norwich vs Brighton

Norwich vs Reading

Wigan vs Norwich

Norwich vs Huddersfield

That takes us up to the 13th December, and gives us a couple of weeks to appoint a manager before the transfer window. What would save his job? I think we need to completely disregard the following four factors: Performance, Possession, Luck, Chances. 

Four words which are being used far too much, as they were last season under Hughton. It is points which matter, and we aren't getting enough of them. For me, I can see absolutely no room to lose any of those four games. If the board were to give him time, I think I'd expect an 8 point target? That is two draws and two wins. Anything less than that and he should be gone. Another defeat in those four games and he should go the morning after.

We simply cannot afford to lose another game so soon after two consecutive defeats if we have serious ambitions to mount a challenge for automatic promotion. 

 

[Boyerboy]

Not sure about this at all. Hoolahan at LM? Martin CB with Whittaker RB? Grabban LW? Those players in those positions are known duds. Shoehorning players into a side does not make an effective team.

As for his bold substitutions, what about bringing on Hooper on for Tettey at Boro? How was that going help?

A joke surely as that was one of his best. 2-0 down go 442 and try and get back in the game.

 

[eatonparkboy]

Both Hull and Leicester were subject to takeovers by very wealthy businessmen in 2010. So neither is a good example. Hull had at least £30m invested in them before returning this league, and the Leicester owners had invested £53m within the first two years, probably much more since.  So unless the argument is that some tough times in the Championship make a takeover more likely, which is probably true, I don't think either can be held up as a good examples. 

If we don't get promoted in the first two years we face a summer where we will need to find at least £14m to cover a budget shortfall, probably more if we accrue losses during those two years and need to finance any debt. That is a huge sum of money. £14m covers the wages of 13 players on £20k a week. How long could we continue to finance a Category A academy?

Other than Redmond and Ruddy, are there any players in our squad for whom we could realise a transfer fee of in excess of £5m? Under Lambert in 2009 we'd reached rock bottom, the only way was up. It is a long way down from here. I think that people forget just how depressing the period between 2006 to 2009 was, it was grim, and anybody saying that they are glad to be back in the Championship will soon change their mind when we have an actual Championship standard squad. Especially if Ipswich become our superior. 

I realise that I'm being very doom and gloom, but we've all been here before as Norwich fans. This season represents our best chance of returning to the Premier League. Next season may be a possibility if we can at least be in the mix this year and retain our best players (top six?), after that I can only see years of Championship mediocrity, like the five or six years that Ipswich have just had.  

We have to give ourselves the best chance of getting back up before the parachute payments decrease. I don't think Adams looks like he has it in him. I hope that the board have learnt from past mistakes and will make the change prior to the transfer window opening. Anybody who can get us in the top six, and a one in four chance of promotion through the play offs, would do. 

Money is no guarantee of success. And the takeovers of these clubs appeared to have very little bearing on the personnel that the managers of these clubs acquired to get them out of the division. But it has worked out, so far temporarily, for the clubs I mentioned.

We came down with money and were debt free with guarantees of 22K+ season ticket sales and the knowledge that smaller away support would allow casual supporters and those on waiting lists to take up the slack. That is tremendous stability in the modern game. And light years from problems in the recent past.

I do not understand how the attitude is changing from the start of the season when we virtually all thought we had the best squad but now we are performing poorly we are now panicking if we don't go straight back up. It will be because the players and they way they were sent out to play were not good enough.

If we don't go back up this season we will still be in a very strong financial position compared to others, and certainly if its the bottom three in the Prem at the moment, and hopefully will have blooded some of our younger talent. And do we believe in them or is it another assumption we have made just like the first team squad?

 

[Watling the Gnome]

If the board were to give Adams more time, how much more time should he get and what should his points target be? 

If he were to get the next four games, three of which are at home:

Norwich vs Brighton

Norwich vs Reading

Wigan vs Norwich

Norwich vs Huddersfield

I would suggest three games, six points.  Three games would give a new incumbent enough time to get someone in, assess the squad and then go to the market in January if need be.

I hope the board are stronger willed than last time and don't keep bumbling on with "plan A" until the fans turn and things go sour.

 

[splutcho]

I honestly think we're one loss away from the fans turning.

 

[Canaryboy]

I would suggest three games, six points.  Three games would give a new incumbent enough time to get someone in, assess the squad and then go to the market in January if need be.

I hope the board are stronger willed than last time and don't keep bumbling on with "plan A" until the fans turn and things go sour.

But that would leave us with another defeat. If we lose one of our next two games we'd have 5 defeats in 10 games. 

That's the same number of defeats that Burnley had in the entirety of last season, and they finished 2nd. I just can't see how we can afford to lose another game in the next four fixtures. 

If he were to be given 3 games, then I'd have to say 7 points. The prospect of another defeat is just unfathomable. We have one win, three draws and four defeats in our last eight games. I'm not sure there is any room to give him those three or four games, we are just going to fall further and further behind. 

 

[Andy]

I've just voted "out" which is the first time I've turned against a manager since Roeder.

It was always a gamble appointing a novice into the post and it could have worked but it patently isn't. The management failings on the pitch are more noticeable now than I can ever recall in the past. Boro was just painful, they showed discipline, we were a shambles.

There is a good chance that Derby will now pull away with Boro, Watford & Ipswich fighting it out for second. We are in real danger of a mid-table finish and I am being optimistic here, our form suggests that we will be in the bottom six.

A new, experienced, manager now could make the difference. Who? That's the tricky bit.

 

[TILLY]

OUT from me. I have been around long enough to smell and see when all is not well and how it will end in tears unfortunately.

 

[Watling the Gnome]

But that would leave us with another defeat. If we lose one of our next two games we'd have 5 defeats in 10 games. 

That's the same number of defeats that Burnley had in the entirety of last season, and they finished 2nd. I just can't see how we can afford to lose another game in the next four fixtures. 

If he were to be given 3 games, then I'd have to say 7 points. The prospect of another defeat is just unfathomable. We have one win, three draws and four defeats in our last eight games. I'm not sure there is any room to give him those three or four games, we are just going to fall further and further behind. 

It's November and we're five points off second place and six points off the top, so one more defeat wouldn't finish us off.  It might well finish Adams off, but that's another story.  I would agree that we need to win our next two home fixtures, which is where I saw the minimum 6 points coming from - 7 would be great.

 

[Lowestoft Canary]

Splutcho I think things have turned whether it is polls on Twitter or on boards where ever you look the collective view is out. I just hope it is done and dusted and someone else is in place u the next home game so everyone can get behind the team

 

[splutcho]

I would hope everyone would get behind the team no matter who is in charge.

 

[Lowestoft Canary]

It just doesn't happen like that. Near the end of the Hughton era the arguing amongst the stands certainly where I sit was getting nasty