In or Out?

[Dandy Mountfarto]

It's November and we're five points off second place and six points off the top, so one more defeat wouldn't finish us off.  It might well finish Adams off, but that's another story.  I would agree that we need to win our next two home fixtures, which is where I saw the minimum 6 points coming from - 7 would be great.

We're also ahead (on goal difference) of where we were during Lambert's Championship season. Beat Brighton and we'll be two points better off than we were at the equivalent stage in 2010.

Its a funny old game.

 

[Lowestoft Canary]

Reviewing Canaryboys comments I had not really considered the possibility of Lambert coming back if the villa sack him? Could it happen??

I can't see it but it would give the fans a lift

 

[Andy]

Reviewing Canaryboys comments I had not really considered the possibility of Lambert coming back if the villa sack him? Could it happen??

I can't see it but it would give the fans a lift

It won't happen but let's just remember that it wasn't just Lambert, it was also Culverhouse with Holt leading on the pitch. That era was brilliant but it's time to look forward not back.

 

[Canaryboy]

Reviewing Canaryboys comments I had not really considered the possibility of Lambert coming back if the villa sack him? Could it happen??

I can't see it but it would give the fans a lift

I consider it extremely unlikely, but I can dream.

Lambert had a serious fallout with McNally and Bowkett, three big egos all unlikely to ever sit round a table to bury the hatchet.

Although I'd instantly gain a hell of a lot more respect for them all if they could do it. 

 

[Lowestoft Canary]

I agree canaryboy but if mcnally and bowkett got removed then not so far fetched!!!

 

[Yellow Fever]

I'm also still undecided. Both Fulham and Cardiff sacked their managers with no improvement since (and that was hard to achieve in Fulham's case!). Rosler's Wigan have hardly set the league alight this year. Once you change the manager, you no longer have that option unless you're going to be like Fulham and change every three months. At the moment we have the same number of points we had after 15 games under Lambert in the Champiohship and his next 3 games were all draws. 

There is time to turn this around, but it has to be soon if we are going to stay in touch with the leaders. I'd give Adams until the end of the year to get back into the play-off places at least. A new manager with the transfer window to bring in new players if we aren't.

 

[Dandy Mountfarto]

I'm also still undecided. Both Fulham and Cardiff sacked their managers with no improvement since (and that was hard to achieve in Fulham's case!). Rosler's Wigan have hardly set the league alight this year. Once you change the manager, you no longer have that option unless you're going to be like Fulham and change every three months. At the moment we have the same number of points we had after 15 games under Lambert in the Champiohship and his next 3 games were all draws. 

There is time to turn this around, but it has to be soon if we are going to stay in touch with the leaders. I'd give Adams until the end of the year to get back into the play-off places at least. A new manager with the transfer window to bring in new players if we aren't.

Small correction: we have the same points now as Lambert's team had after 17 games, and his 6 results after that taking us to the halfway stage were W4 D1 L1.

With the fixtures we have coming up my expectations is that we do similar, say 10-15 points. Do worse than that and thats when I'll start to think Adams isn't our man.

 

[Dubai Mark]

What genuinely surprises me is that the OUT's are a much higher percentage than I can remember on any similar thread elsewhere over Chris Hughton, and hardly any "fence sitters" of which there were many with CH even at the end. BUT......no real nastiness like we witnessed then, hatred even......sad times actually for our club :-(

 

[Din]

Din, in your very good post, you highlight for me it the puzzle at the heart of this remarkably sensible and controlled thread. You describe the almost freakish games against Charlton and Rotherham and then say " this poor run is mainly down to Adams. There is no denying that".

I am still struggling to understand exactly what Adams is doing wrong beyond "They were rubbish. Sack the manager".

We all disagree with team selections but there has been nothing really wrong with his teams. He makes early and bold substitutions.

We are where we are because of freak results and the players losing their way in a couple of games. Neither is obviously Adams fault yet he is blamed. It goes with the territory of course.

I think that the situation is recoverable and he should get the chance to do it. As I've said elsewhere, the role of the manager for good or bad is grossly overrated and I think that Adams has the ability and skills to be a competent or better manager.

Finally, I can see Adams being another Chris Martin. Forced out by the weight of opinion that he's not good enough and needs to find his level only to succeed elsewhere and have fans saying two years later, "Why did we let him go? Big mistake".

I don't think anyone really blames Adams for not beating Charlton/Rotherham. We did everything possible to win those games and it was only some ridiculously bad luck that meant that we didn't.

The reason I said that this bad run of form is mainly down to Adams, is nothing really to do with those 2 games. 

The fact of the matter is although we were desperately unlucky in those 2 games, there have been a lot of games where Adams decision making has been very questionable to say the least. Persisting with 4-4-2 with Grabban and Jerome up front even though it was clear it wasn't working. Playing Russell Martin at centre back, playing Hoolahan on the left wing. Leaving out our best player (Redmond) from the start against Sheffield Wednesday, not changing the system once we went behind yesterday, not making the right substitutions, and even not signing a proper left midfielder in the summer. All things Adams can be held accountable for, and that's probably not all of them.

As I said before, I personally would give him another opportunity against Brighton to turn it around, but although there have been times where Adams can not be held accountable for us dropping points, there are also plenty of occasions where he can.

 

[Andy]

What genuinely surprises me is that the OUT's are a much higher percentage than I can remember on any similar thread elsewhere over Chris Hughton, and hardly any "fence sitters" of which there were many with CH even at the end. BUT......no real nastiness like we witnessed then, hatred even......sad times actually for our club :-(

I think that Adam's lack of experience has a lot to do with it. I was prepared to persevere with Hughton because he had a track record to refer to but with Adams it was a leap of faith appointment and the evidence to date suggests that things will not improve.
Also, expectations are much higher now, most of us expected to be competing comfortably in this league and to finish top 2 or at least in the play-offs. With Hughton it was just about survival.

It's easier to be an "outer" now.

 

[Din]

I also think it's because the majority of fans did not want Neil Adams in the first place. I would say that most supporters either wanted Lennon or Malky. Whereas after Lambert left, on the face of it Hughton was a good replacement.

Also, as you say Andy, expectations are much higher now. As long as Hughton kept us in the league during that first season he would've done his job, which he did and even somehow managed to get us as high as 11th. It was in the second season when expectations were higher after we'd spent a considerable amount of money on the likes of RvW and Hooper that the volatility towards Hughton really started. Adams is expected to get us promoted, so the fact that we're 4 places off the play-offs right now, and don't look like turning round our fortunes, has a huge part to play in fans opinions.

 

[Killiecanary]

I also think it's because the majority of fans did not want Neil Adams in the first place. I would say that most supporters either wanted Lennon or Malky. Whereas after Lambert left, on the face of it Hughton was a good replacement.

Also, as you say Andy, expectations are much higher now. As long as Hughton kept us in the league during that first season he would've done his job, which he did and even somehow managed to get us as high as 11th. It was in the second season when expectations were higher after we'd spent a considerable amount of money on the likes of RvW and Hooper that the volatility towards Hughton really started. Adams is expected to get us promoted, so the fact that we're 4 places off the play-offs right now, and don't look like turning round our fortunes, has a huge part to play in fans opinions.

Not sure I agree with you 100% on this one Din....I am sure I distinctly remember a lot of flak and bad feeling towards Hughton in the second half of that first season. He lost popularity quickly after the unbeaten run came to an end to my recollection.

Actually on reflection I'm not sure I can remember him ever being positively popular. I don't think I can ever remember his name being sung like Lamberts often was?

If we do replace Neil, I thnk we need a really powerful appointment that will actually be welcomed by the overwhelming majority of fans. God knows who that could be though!!

 

[Din]

Not sure I agree with you 100% on this one Din....I am sure I distinctly remember a lot of flak and bad feeling towards Hughton in the second half of that first season. He lost popularity quickly after the unbeaten run came to an end to my recollection.

Actually on reflection I'm not sure I can remember him ever being positively popular. I don't think I can ever remember his name being sung like Lamberts often was?

If we do replace Neil, I thnk we need a really powerful appointment that will actually be welcomed by the overwhelming majority of fans. God knows who that could be though!!

You are right that there was a fair bit of bad feeling towards Hughton in the second half of that season, however after we beat West Brom and Manchester City in the last 2 games of that season, that there were more people behind Hughton than against him. Especially after our performance on the opening day of the next season against Everton, where Hughton had appeared to change the philosophy to more attacking, attractive football. Obviously it quickly deteriorated throughout the season, and by the end of his tenure it was clear he had overstayed his welcome. I seem to remember though a lot of the complaints were that although Hughton would keep us up, he wouldn't ever be able to take us to the next level. In the end it turned out he actually couldn't do either. But that shows that expectation levels around Carrow Road had risen, and that's when the real hatred of Hughton started.

 

[Ankles]

I've come to the conclusion Adams is a cracking coach/motivator on the training park but Manager he is not, I think there is every chance he'll develop into one, but this job is a bit too early for him

 

[GazzaTCC]

On the cusp of an out for me. This international break would be the perfect opportunity, although I suspect he'll get Brighton and be gone, before the AGM, if it goes pear shaped.

The issue that bugs me most about Saturday, Pearce brought on two subs after 66 minutes, went three at the back, with five in midfield. It soon became obvious that was the turning point. Adams didn't respond at all and nine minutes later it took off our best striker on the day, leaving Grabban on with Lafferty, an untried combination. No more changes were made thereafter and whilst arguably we should have seen the game out, we just hung on in there.

It was a classic example of how managers can influence a game.

 

[kirku]

A joke surely as that was one of his best. 2-0 down go 442 and try and get back in the game.

A game that we ended up losing 4-0 was 'one of his best'?

In a game where we struggled to create anything and where our midfield was entirely ineffective, he decided to throw on an unfit poacher and expected him to make a difference. Simply sticking another striker on the pitch doesn't inherently make the team more positive, especially when that striker is well-known for being unable to create his own chances.

It was a dreadful decision and I said as much at the time.

 

[morty]

I like Neil, I think everyone likes Neil, but "like" doesn't put wins on the table.

This is our very, very best chance of being promoted back to the Premiership, its literally being handed to the manager on a gold platter. He has a good squad, money to spend and a massive group of loyal fans. If we blow it this season, it becomes ten times harder next season, as the better players have their head turned, and our board (quite rightly) tighten the purse strings, and before we know it league one is beckoning again.

And we can all see it slipping away, before our very eyes. I'm sorry but if our team has no heart or spirit, its one man's job to rectify that. If I'm honest we could probably do with a hard nosed bastard, that we don't particularly like right now, instead of nice Neil who just wants to be everybodies friend. We don't have the time to train up a potentially good manager, and it isn't acting like a spoiled child demanding success this season, its about recognising the fact that this is our very best chance, and we don't want to blow it.

I think the board will be formulating a plan right now, and a lot of it will hinge on the result of the next game.

 

[wcorkcanary]

Cant help but agree Mort, i really hoped that Neil was the right man, but now feel that hope is a shallow resource. NA is a good man with his heart in Norwich but again, fondness and loyalty wont get the job done. I dont doubt that Neil is a good coach, but is he ruthless enough to make the tough calls....the ones that secure or turn a game at this level.

I say bring on a first class hard nosed bar steward, with a win mentality, the clock is ticking and we are sliding down the table, once we are winning again, confidence and therefore performance will improve.

 

[eatonparkboy]

Cant help but agree Mort, i really hoped that Neil was the right man, but now feel that hope is a shallow resource. NA is a good man with his heart in Norwich but again, fondness and loyalty wont get the job done. I dont doubt that Neil is a good coach, but is he ruthless enough to make the tough calls....the ones that secure or turn a game at this level.

I say bring on a first class hard nosed bar steward, with a win mentality, the clock is ticking and we are sliding down the table, once we are winning again, confidence and therefore performance will improve.

Sometimes though we should be careful what we wish for.

Roeder was a hard nose of the first order. First job he did was get rid of Huckerby. And nobody liked that and from that moment on, despite him rescuing us from certain relegation. I don't think we have someone of that staure with the fans in the club at the moment but a ruthless guy just might upset the apple cart.

I think, despite some attempts to toughen up, NCFC supporters enjoy their standing and image as a nice, genuine, family club. I think even misery guts Lambert was overwhelmed at times by the generosity of the fans toward him.

Personally I would hate us to become a win at all costs club. Otherwise Delia might as well sell out to a foreign potentate.

But to counter that, it is about playing football and hopefully winning and progressing so sentiment has to take a back seat on occasions.

 

[morty]

Sometimes though we should be careful what we wish for.

Roeder was a hard nose of the first order. First job he did was get rid of Huckerby. And nobody liked that and from that moment on, despite him rescuing us from certain relegation. I don't think we have someone of that staure with the fans in the club at the moment but a ruthless guy just might upset the apple cart.

I think, despite some attempts to toughen up, NCFC supporters enjoy their standing and image as a nice, genuine, family club. I think even misery guts Lambert was overwhelmed at times by the generosity of the fans toward him.

Personally I would hate us to become a win at all costs club. Otherwise Delia might as well sell out to a foreign potentate.

But to counter that, it is about playing football and hopefully winning and progressing so sentiment has to take a back seat on occasions.

Football has changed, there are no principals any more. Nice, well run family clubs are all well and good, but it has to be about winning, and being the very best you can be.

Our club rose, like a phoenix over the last five years, and we are now on the cusp of all that good work being undone. For a club of our financial means, an extended stay in the Championship is tantamount to a slow, lingering death.

We need to seize the moment, and grasp our chance. And we can't let sentiment get in the way.