Nice guys finish last.

[morty]

Have a wee read of this, and tell me what you think. I think it is a fantastic piece, and scarily accurate. Raises the question, yet again, of small club mentality.

http://norwichcity.myfootballwriter.com/2014/11/16/nice-or-nasty-are-city-now-just-a-little-too-nice-off-the-pitch-to-be-successful-on-it/

 

[eatonparkboy]

The article is understandable and reasonably accurate and certainly food for thought for NCFC supporters who are in a kind of limbo at the moment after the events of the last six years.

Success comes in many forms and I guess the ultimate is the club winning things. And of course that is important. Very important to many. But of course, like it or not, our chance of winning things diminishes each season. The Premier League title is totally beyond us and 85 other clubs. The FA Cup is an outside chance seeing the disdain even the FA affords it. And the League Cup is the best chance of a top title. All that is left is the Championship title (I am ignoring L1 and L2 for our purposes) and promotion especially via a final appearance via the play offs.

So realistically, we have a more than fair chance of two successes in the league and an outside cup chance.  And looking at how many able clubs have been through or are in the Championship, I think two successes in the last 12 seasons, and a play off final, is not a bad percentage of success. And during that period, the clubs external debt has been cleared, facilities at the ground and training ground have improved and the ground capacity enlarged.

So of course, many nice guys finish last but still have their fair share of success overall.

 

[SussexYellow]

Agree Morty, a good read and does indeed raise the question of small club mentality.

I have seen a number of posts recently basically stating we are just in our natural station. Toggling between the Championship and Premiership but mainly in the Championship. But should we not be challenging that rather than accepting it. OK 40 odd years ago when I signed up as a supporter I knew I was not signing up for supporting a top flight side. In some ways because of that it has enhanced the sense of pride when success has come along. But for me the last few years have shown what can be done, what can be achieved and that there is no intrinsic reason why we should not aspire to being a regular top flight club. 

Sorry EPB but I do not the buy the fair percentage of success argument. Can you imagine Man U, Chelsea or Liverpool supporters saying yep we have filled our trophy cabinet with plenty of pots over the last few decades so if we hibernate in Division1 for a bit that's OK because it is just balancing things out a bit. 

As supporters we should not just accept our lot, but make it clear that our aspirations are high. That we need to see our club with a management structure that provides a realistic go at achieving those aspirations. OK we may not succeed but at least lets give it our best shot. At the moment the biggest disappointment is the feeling that we are not giving it our best shot.

 

[morty]

Am massively plagiarizing the author (as I am chatting to him on Facebook) and the lack of leadership at the club right now is worrying.

We used to have McNally in the boardroom, Lambert on the sidelines, and Holt on the pitch.

Now it all seems a little bit spineless (with no disrespect to anyone in particular) 

 

[Dubai Mark]

Thanks for posting Morty.

I am not really sure this is all about a small club mentality, as I dont think the club has that when you look at what has been achieved over recent years. 

For me, its more about the cautious mentality they have had since PL left or more accurately since we became "debt free" , maybe because they have been bitten big time before...we are now almost low risk...and its that I am worried about. 

I have never been so disappointed with the appointment of a new Manager then when NA was appointed, nothing against him at all and to this day I would get great satisfaction if hew turns thing round, but it was for the Board a low risk/easy appointment but in reality a high risk I feel, confused yet?. 

I like SussexYellow's comment regarding not giving it our best shot.....nail on the head and we must all be very frustrated by that!!

 

[morty]

Thanks for posting Morty.

I am not really sure this is all about a small club mentality, as I dont think the club has that when you look at what has been achieved over recent years. 

For me, its more about the cautious mentality they have had since PL left or more accurately since we became "debt free" , maybe because they have been bitten big time before...we are now almost low risk...and its that I am worried about. 

I have never been so disappointed with the appointment of a new Manager then when NA was appointed, nothing against him at all and to this day I would get great satisfaction if hew turns thing round, but it was for the Board a low risk/easy appointment but in reality a high risk I feel, confused yet?. 

I like SussexYellow's comment regarding not giving it our best shot.....nail on the head and we must all be very frustrated by that!!

Agree on the point of low risk. I think Paul Lambert wanted to take us to the next level, but the club didn't match his ambition. So Hughton was appointed as a low risk option. And now Neil (with no disrespect to him) was appointed as a fan friendly, low risk, cheap option. What I am seeing here is a massive shift from the Lambert days, the club basically accepting our position and aiming significantly lower than it has done in the past.

 

[Old Shuck]

Thanks for the comments...

We've always seemed to prosper when we've had a player with a big character, someone gives the club momentum by either sheer force of character (Duncan, Holty) or through what they were capable of doing on the pitch and thus inspiring others (Hucks). And others.

Its not uncommon for 'lesser' clubs to have a similar talisman, a player or Manager, someone who just gives the place a lift by being there. Southampton have done it with Koeman, what an appointment that was. You can immediately see players spirits lift, think how their young players would have regarded the appointment, how the older ones would have talked him and his career up. They've actually managed to upgrade on Pochettino-despite him going and half the team in the Summer. The appointment was bold but what a statement to make. Would it have been one we'd have ever dared to make?

Since we appointed Ron Saunders (permanent Managers only) we've had another, up to and including Adams, sixteen in charge-ten of those have either been ex-players or internal appointments. So we like to do things that way, its not endemic of the current ownership. But does it suggest an insular approach, playing safe, going with what we or who we know? It seems fairly set into the club culture-but it has been seen to work, Brown won us a League Cup, Stringer a 4th place and two FA Cup semi finals, Walker we know, O'Neill we wonder what might have been.

Some haven't worked-Deehan, Megson, Gunn. Going back further, neither did Ron Ashman.

Its like successive regimes at the club play pass the parcel-one goes, another steps in, same old package, different layer, same old content and objectives-its worked before, it can work again, spin the wheel-Adams turn now, you wouldn't bet against Gary Holt getting the nod, in a Worthington type manner, if Adams went.

I think Lambert would have stayed if he'd felt the drive from within continue into and beyond that first season in the Prem. Its like some people found it too exciting for their liking and chose to step off the ride. We've felt a bit limp ever since and are waiting for someone else to charge it all up again-but seem to be doing our best to make sure we don't recruit someone who might do that!

 

[eatonparkboy]

Agree Morty, a good read and does indeed raise the question of small club mentality.

I have seen a number of posts recently basically stating we are just in our natural station. Toggling between the Championship and Premiership but mainly in the Championship. But should we not be challenging that rather than accepting it. OK 40 odd years ago when I signed up as a supporter I knew I was not signing up for supporting a top flight side. In some ways because of that it has enhanced the sense of pride when success has come along. But for me the last few years have shown what can be done, what can be achieved and that there is no intrinsic reason why we should not aspire to being a regular top flight club. 

Sorry EPB but I do not the buy the fair percentage of success argument. Can you imagine Man U, Chelsea or Liverpool supporters saying yep we have filled our trophy cabinet with plenty of pots over the last few decades so if we hibernate in Division1 for a bit that's OK because it is just balancing things out a bit. 

As supporters we should not just accept our lot, but make it clear that our aspirations are high. That we need to see our club with a management structure that provides a realistic go at achieving those aspirations. OK we may not succeed but at least lets give it our best shot. At the moment the biggest disappointment is the feeling that we are not giving it our best shot.

I don't think the three clubs you mention are fair examples. Their support make up will be far different from NCFC. Many of their "supporters" will have chosen the club not inherited it by place of birth or family ties. And the joke about ManU supporters with Cockney accents is justified. And they will have chosen their clubs because of the success.

And equally, the supporters of those clubs who have supported them from birth etc, will have been used to challenging for the major trophies each and every year. And yes they would be upset if they didn't make a show of it. 

But to use the small club mentality label as an insult to supporters who honestly accept that we aren't always going to be in the Prem or win trophies has become a bit of a fashionable put down along with thoughts about the board of directors who ultimately have put their money up front and in some ways, people who are happy just to go and support come what may.

And I do believe that our board of directors want success as much as anyone and they believe they are making the best decisions. Whether we agree with those decisions has little bearing on why they made them in the first place.

 

[SussexYellow]

I don't think the three clubs you mention are fair examples. Their support make up will be far different from NCFC. Many of their "supporters" will have chosen the club not inherited it by place of birth or family ties. And the joke about ManU supporters with Cockney accents is justified. And they will have chosen their clubs because of the success.

And equally, the supporters of those clubs who have supported them from birth etc, will have been used to challenging for the major trophies each and every year. And yes they would be upset if they didn't make a show of it. 

But to use the small club mentality label as an insult to supporters who honestly accept that we aren't always going to be in the Prem or win trophies has become a bit of a fashionable put down along with thoughts about the board of directors who ultimately have put their money up front and in some ways, people who are happy just to go and support come what may.

And I do believe that our board of directors want success as much as anyone and they believe they are making the best decisions. Whether we agree with those decisions has little bearing on why they made them in the first place.

I do not think it is a question of the make up of their support EPB. It was a my tongue in cheek way of saying just because we have had some success, perhaps more than our peers, it does not mean we should be satisfied with it.

I realise that the point you were making was that although we are perhaps nice guys we have still been successful. But it also has a feel of be satisfied with what we have enjoyed.

I think if you read my post I am not insulting anybody. And surely the point is we all do turn up to support come what may. I also realise that the board want success as much as we do, indeed more so.

However I do feel that with sound management and good decision making there is no reason why we should not aspire to becoming a regular top flight club. Last season we had a great opportunity last year to build on the foundations of two years in the premiership and came up short and this year the season is also now going awry. It is frustrating because, even moving forward with financial prudence, we should be doing better than we currently are. And I really do think the board would accept that!

 

[eatonparkboy]

I do not think it is a question of the make up of their support EPB. It was a my tongue in cheek way of saying just because we have had some success, perhaps more than our peers, it does not mean we should be satisfied with it.

I realise that the point you were making was that although we are perhaps nice guys we have still been successful. But it also has a feel of be satisfied with what we have enjoyed.

I think if you read my post I am not insulting anybody. And surely the point is we all do turn up to support come what may. I also realise that the board want success as much as we do, indeed more so.

However I do feel that with sound management and good decision making there is no reason why we should not aspire to becoming a regular top flight club. Last season we had a great opportunity last year to build on the foundations of two years in the premiership and came up short and this year the season is also now going awry. It is frustrating because, even moving forward with financial prudence, we should be doing better than we currently are. And I really do think the board would accept that!

Sorry if you thought I meant your post was insulting. Far from it. I just feel that term is being used in some quarters as a put down. I am guilty of having small club mentality. In terms of size, support, income, wealth of owners, competition and potential I do believe we are one of the yo-yo clubs.

But living in another part of the country and having visited many of the away grounds, particularly in our L1 season, I do know of the respect we have. And I think that respect is in part because of the achievements of this club in the last 25 years. Achievements that others see as impressive for a club of our size.

Yes it may be possible to become a regular top flight club but I doubt a permanent one. And I don't blame the board or supporters for what has happened in the last 12 months. Hughton was the obvious choice at the time and he failed. And a few games into the season, we all thought NA was a good choice. Now we aren't so sure. But I don't think the appointment was made through lack of ambition, taking the cheap option or reluctance to chase promotion again.

 

[Lake District Canary]

What about Swansea?  With the right leadership at the top, choosing the right personnel to run the team, they are a smallish club bucking the trend consistently.   Have a clear ethos and are sticking to it.    The board we have are trying to achieve the same kind of thing, I'm sure, but this blip has really set us back.  I too believe we can be a consistent premiership team and that should always be the aim of the exercise, but reality suggests that it is going to be very hard to do on the resources we have available.  Do Swansea have better resources than us - probably - and that is the crux  of the matter.   To achieve what we want as a club we have to be on top of the game from top of the club to the bottom, all the time - or get significant investment - and that can be troublesome in itself.

 

[Boyerboy]

And both ironically and pertinently, Swansea appointed a manager from within with much less managerial and coaching experience and pedigree than we did.

 

[SussexYellow]

And both ironically and pertinently, Swansea appointed a manager from within with much less managerial and coaching experience and pedigree than we did.

True but.... and I believe this is highly significant Gary Monk was appointed to continue the existing football ethos. One that one that has been fairly stable probably since the Martinez days but developed under Brendan Rodgers.

In our case we had the Lambert style, which was then changed wholesale to a more defence based approach by Hughton. Then Adams has been brought in to change the style again - to playing the Norwich way. It is a big ask for an inexperienced manager to come in and make fundamental changes to playing style and be successful. Had he been asked to carry on building on the deep foundations laid down over a number of years, a la Swansea, then I think we would be experiencing a more comfortable ride.

 

[eatonparkboy]

And Swansea have an ethos of trying scoring first, defending second and while they have been in the Prem have had some very good and prolific strikers. And backed up with width that delivers.

We had that but chose to trust in trying not to lose rather than trying to win. We acquired what appeared to be the same ingredients as Swansea had with Snodgrass and Redmond supplying RVW annod Hooper. And we might well have done it with a positive attitude. But that is history and the board have, as has been pointed out, tried to return to the Norwich way. Unfortunately, we still have the bulk of a beaten and losing squad apart from the strikers.