Norwich City Manager "the big question"

[Canaryboy]

Howson has to start taking charge in games from midfield. If he regularly done that in the middle of the park he would stay there.

The player we have who looks most capable of "taking charge" in midfield is Mulumbu, and I don't understand why he was relegated back to the bench as he looks to be the complete box-to-box midfielder. 

I really think that Mulumbu could come in and become the lynchpin of our midfield. 

 

[Canaryboy]

Given what we have spent so far, what we have spent previous seasons, plus the bids reported by what seemed to be from creditable sources in the summer, I think so.  But I dont think that will get us much, when you throw in wages plus inflated Jan prices.

Does £30m involve us selling Redmond? Still no new contract for him, that's a Raheem Sterling situation fast brewing. 

 

[RhythmicTheory]

Does £30m involve us selling Redmond? Still no new contract for him, that's a Raheem Sterling situation fast brewing. 

No, that amount isnt based on player sales.

 

[morty]

No, that amount isnt based on player sales.

I think we will spend decent money, you may not be far off with your estimate.

 

[RhythmicTheory]

If he wants him to do that he needs to play him there. Not wide left, not wide right and not off the front man. It'd be lovely if he was great in all those positions but he's not. By our standards he's a very good central midfielder.

If AN can't see where he's gone wrong there then we're in trouble.

He's a versatile player that he obviously believes can play those wide roles better than the under performing players such as Redmond or covering the injured such as Jarvis (hes going to make a big difference when hes back).  In these situations, needs must.

Still doesnt change the fact that he needs to take his chance when played in the middle and I dont see how you can blame AN for him not doing that.  Hes played centre mid majority of his career (or just behind the striker), playing a few games on either wing doesnt mean you lose that experience.  In seasons past hes gone missing for games, even when played in the centre and I think stating he needds to stamp his authority on games is right on the money, hes a bit too placid at the times.  Hopefully that part of his game will grow though because he has so much ability.

 

[hogesar]

I would also add, and I know this is a stretch, but if AN picked Hoolahan at centreback and he didn't perform there would you say that's Hoolahan's fault for not taking charge or AN's fault for putting him in the wrong position?

You know the answer GJP..

I understand where youre coming from and the obvious solution is to give him a run in his natural central position to build confidence and form but the reality is until recently there's been a lot of competition for those middle places and several players have previously played well there. 

Whilst it's no longer strictly relevant now, I can see why AN didn't feel he could give a player a run just to hope his form improves 

 

[Canaryboy]

I think we will spend decent money, you may not be far off with your estimate.

As we've learnt from the last several transfer windows in this league, having the willingness to spend big money on quality players and actually attracting them to the club is two different things.

I'd rather us actually sign a £3m player than be merely linked with several £10m players but end up with nothing. Alderweireld, Biglia, Quagliarella, Van Djik. 

We're fantastic at being linked with fantastic players.  

I was a bit cheesed off the other day to read some quotes by Roberto Martinez discussing Steven Naismith. He stated quite clearly that he would have accepted the offer that they received from Norwich for Naismith if it hadn't been made at the very last minute, leaving him with no time to sign a replacement.

Now, that could be because Naismith was our 2nd choice, but it really feels like the board have failed us once again in the transfer market this summer by dillying and dallying and leaving things far too late. Also looked like we'd allowed Crystal Palace to string us along until the very last minute on Dwight Gayle, allowing ourselves no time to pursue a plan B. 

We were allegedly prepared to pay £8m for Dwight Gayle and £8m for Steven Naismith. Furthermore we were clearly in the market for a centre back, probably prepared to pay the £10m it would have cost for Van Djik if we'd been as attractive to him as Southampton.

That's £26m, so yes the sum of £30m doesn't sound too pie in the sky for what we were prepared to spend in the summer but ultimately failed miserably to do. 

January is a completely different ball game though, especially if we're looking like strong candidates for relegation. There will be a lot of quality players who will simply be prepared to put up with 6 more months of limited football and see what they can secure in the summer rather than sign up to a relegation battle with a big wage drop clause written into their contracts. And if there was £30m left in the bank on transfer deadline day that does not mean that the board will be willing to spend £30m if we're sitting in the relegation zone, I think they'd suddenly become a lot more risk averse. 

What sort of established quality footballer is going to sign a permanent deal with us in January, if it could mean they'd be getting a huge pay cut in June. We've made things difficult for ourselves, relegation battles aren't an attractive proposition. 

Failure to invest in quality permanent signings in the summer will I fear leave us having to try and recruit quality in the loan market with an agreement to buy if we stay up, and many of the players who will want to come here will just be those who want to play football in advance of the Euro's. 

That worries me a bit because I'd question whether they want to come here and impress because they want to earn a permanent deal here, or because they simply want to secure their place in an international squad, if the latter then no doubt they'd down tools for the last few games of the season to ensure they don't get injured for the tournament.

Sorry to sound so pessimistic but I think we've made the exact same mistake this time around that we did under Worthington, simply failed to invest in sufficient quality in the summer, and the Naismith thing has really irked me. He was ours for the taking, confirmed by his manager. 

People have started to turn on Alex Neil but he's been seriously let down I think. In much the same way that Man Utd completely failed to secure any targets for David Moyes. 

Alex Neil was p*ssed off with our deadline day failures, that was obvious in his interviews which followed, so were the fans.

 

[Dubai Mark]

I was interested to read that Ranieri is just about working with all or nearly all Nigel Pearson's squad. But back to the topic,  answers  here to my OP have really got me thinking about things, right now I am still of the firm belief that the Club's situation prior to the January transfer window is when any change should be made. I say that,  even if it means taking a huge gamble either way, but not having the situation where we stick because we are happy to go down with the current management, back him with cash with the objective of staying up.......or, find another Ranieri who can work with what he has inherited and turn results around. 

 

[Killiecanary]

I'm in the 9% I'm afraid, I want him gone before its too late.

That's all I'll say on this subject for now.

no Wiz...

You ARE the 9%

 

[Killiecanary]

How long do you stick for though?

We've taken 6 points from the last 30. The same record as Swansea and only Villa have a worse record.

Everton, Man Utd and Spurs up next. Are we going to win any of those? Can't really see it at the moment.

we stick for as long as it takes - and if we go down then we still stick.  

Sorry but this talk to me is just mental.  We have a progressive, hungry young manager who,clearly has developed a squad who believe in him (clearly from the interviews I heard today he is respected by the players and when he needs to lay the law (half time today for instance) he can get the right reaction.  He makes mistakes sometimes (as does every manager - seen Mourinho's team recently??) and openly admits them and tries to rectify them.  

We we were promoted through the play offs with a lower prem squad.  We haven't been able to add enough to it for reasons that seem well-documented all of which seem to be beyond his control.  The signings he has made I like - Brady, mulumbu, mbokani all good additions for me and I think we miss Jarvis in this sticky run we have at the moment.  

So - to sum up - we have a manager with loads of potential and who clearly likes to learn, he has a relegation potential squad, and has had little or no real backing from the board in the transfer market ( not to say I believe we should break the bank - that's another thread!) and he is keeping us just above the line through shrewd tactics (usually) and good man management. 

I compared red the line ups with my son today, and I don't think there was a single position (with honoriable mention to Dec - but he doesn't have the experience Howard has) where Everton didn't have a better player than we have in that position.  The question isn't about relegation - it is how likely is it that any other manager would be able to do more than he has with the players at his disposal?  I really don't see it.

 

[Killiecanary]

The player we have who looks most capable of "taking charge" in midfield is Mulumbu, and I don't understand why he was relegated back to the bench as he looks to be the complete box-to-box midfielder. 

I really think that Mulumbu could come in and become the lynchpin of our midfield. 

I agree - and like him.  I think AN likes Tettey as his defensive  midfield rock, which means Mulumbu is in a fierce battle for a place.

I'm also not entirely sure he is quite 100% match fit yet either following his injury.

 

[Killiecanary]

I can't agree about AN and his tactics. I think at best he is naive and inexperienced and worst unsure what his best team is. If your squad is not good enough then I don't think automatically handing the initiative to the opposition is what is needed. Against some teams it is taken out of your hands of course. But listening to Bellamy and Carragher bemoaning the trend of one striker and criticising British coaches for following trends and basically being one  trend behind each time made me even more convinced that AN is not really being true to his own belief on how football should be played.

And to be honest I think our strike force as a unit is as good as any other unit in the team. And I'm sure they would rather be playing as a two than the solo role they have at the moment. And we have sent the ideal player to play in a two man unit out on loan. 4-4-2 isn't ugly and worked so well for years.

I think AN has the youth, vigour and will to take this club further. But I want him to put his stamp on the team not just copy what everyone else is doing. And despite Canaryboy's reticence about Eddie Howe, he has stuck with what he believes and if his team goes down, it won't be for the lack of entertainment.

I can't agree with your inability to agree!  Sorry, but playing 442 in this league with our players would be suicide, unless we lumped 50 yard hoofs up to two big units up front. If you lose the midfield battle against most of these teams you lose the match.  You mention Watford - their front two have pace and mobility ours doesn't have.  I also heartily disagree that our front force is as strong as th other areas; to me it is clearly the weakest.  I hold out hope that Mbokani might be the player we need and AN is gently easing him in.  There are good reasons why Cameron J has never been a prolific premier league striker and they are repeating again (much as I love his work rate and unselfishness he just isn't a premier league quality first choice striker.  Nor is Grabban.  Nor Hooper.  And don't get me started on the bonkers love-in some seem to have for Lafferty.  Attack is clearly the area AN needs to pull out the stops in January to strengthen.

I do agree with you that AN probably doesn't know his best team.  That is because there is no such thing. There are dozens of things that affect what could be the best team for any one game - form, tactics, formation, opposition strength, opposition weaknesses, opposite tactics, opposition formation, injuries, how players play together, personal issues for certain players at certain times, player confidence - I could go on and on.  Look at the goalkeeping situation - at some point Declan has gone ahead of JR in the 'best team' but he may not stay there for ever (although he has made a great start) for any of the reasons above or something completely different.  

 

[eatonparkboy]

I can't agree with your inability to agree!  Sorry, but playing 442 in this league with our players would be suicide, unless we lumped 50 yard hoofs up to two big units up front. If you lose the midfield battle against most of these teams you lose the match.  You mention Watford - their front two have pace and mobility ours doesn't have.  I also heartily disagree that our front force is as strong as th other areas; to me it is clearly the weakest.  I hold out hope that Mbokani might be the player we need and AN is gently easing him in.  There are good reasons why Cameron J has never been a prolific premier league striker and they are repeating again (much as I love his work rate and unselfishness he just isn't a premier league quality first choice striker.  Nor is Grabban.  Nor Hooper.  And don't get me started on the bonkers love-in some seem to have for Lafferty.  Attack is clearly the area AN needs to pull out the stops in January to strengthen.

I do agree with you that AN probably doesn't know his best team.  That is because there is no such thing. There are dozens of things that affect what could be the best team for any one game - form, tactics, formation, opposition strength, opposition weaknesses, opposite tactics, opposition formation, injuries, how players play together, personal issues for certain players at certain times, player confidence - I could go on and on.  Look at the goalkeeping situation - at some point Declan has gone ahead of JR in the 'best team' but he may not stay there for ever (although he has made a great start) for any of the reasons above or something completely different.  

But we are losing the midfield battle in most matches with five in there. We even lost the midfield battle with Swansea, the only game we have won recently and that was with a goal from a set piece.

I cannot accept that the first thing we do is pick a team based on the opposition. Form does dictate individuals and injuries and suspensions speak for themselves. But if you live in fear of the opposition then why even bother to play in this division. We are in the Prem because we were the third best team in the Championship and got promoted. And the majority of fans want to see this club test itself against the best the league has to offer. Yes we are realists but to automatically admit we are second best and try to stop the opposition first and foremost is just 40 years out of date.

 

[Killiecanary]

It isn't necessarily fear of the opposition Eaton - but any manager who doesn't set out to stop the opposition playing to their strengths isn't doing his job properly.

we were the third best team in the championship - and may I add only that because of AN.  That made us the 23rd best team in the country.  And we are now in the top 20.   We simply don't have the personnel to say 'we will play our players however we want to set them up and we will win because we are better than you' - because we clearly aren't.  And some systems are more successful than others...do you really think that all of those experienced, highly trained, top class managers have chosen to move away from 2 up front for any other reason than they agree that modern football matches are won and lost in midfield?  Or, to put it another way, when did you last see 2 inside halfs and 2 outside halfs in a 6 man forward line?  Progress is progress! 

We will still often lose midfield battles, even 5 against 5, if the opposition have 5 better midfielders, or 5 more in form midfielders, or even 5 more intelligent midfielders!   I think we bossed the midfield second half today (although abject in the first)

i guess where here I disagree with you most is in your assessment of our manager.   Under Hughton we moaned about lack of substitutions - For AN I think a strength.  I don't see him as tactically naive...more that he actually has a plan BCDE and F - another criticism I frequently made of Hughton.  Yes he tries to overthink some stuff sometimes, but When he gets it wrong he doesn't half change it quick. 

 

[Boyerboy]

The trouble is that everyone including Alex Neil completely overreacted to the Newcastle result. That was a freak game and as Mark Lawrenson said on FiveLive "It was like a game from the fifties. You attack, we attack. It was 6-2 but it could have been anything". Everyone behaved as if the sky had fallen in rather than a one-off bizarre game.

The pendulum will swing as confidence grows and we will become more attacking again though hopefully remain more solid at the back. 

 

[eatonparkboy]

It isn't necessarily fear of the opposition Eaton - but any manager who doesn't set out to stop the opposition playing to their strengths isn't doing his job properly.

we were the third best team in the championship - and may I add only that because of AN.  That made us the 23rd best team in the country.  And we are now in the top 20.   We simply don't have the personnel to say 'we will play our players however we want to set them up and we will win because we are better than you' - because we clearly aren't.  And some systems are more successful than others...do you really think that all of those experienced, highly trained, top class managers have chosen to move away from 2 up front for any other reason than they agree that modern football matches are won and lost in midfield?  Or, to put it another way, when did you last see 2 inside halfs and 2 outside halfs in a 6 man forward line?  Progress is progress! 

We will still often lose midfield battles, even 5 against 5, if the opposition have 5 better midfielders, or 5 more in form midfielders, or even 5 more intelligent midfielders!   I think we bossed the midfield second half today (although abject in the first)

i guess where here I disagree with you most is in your assessment of our manager.   Under Hughton we moaned about lack of substitutions - For AN I think a strength.  I don't see him as tactically naive...more that he actually has a plan BCDE and F - another criticism I frequently made of Hughton.  Yes he tries to overthink some stuff sometimes, but When he gets it wrong he doesn't half change it quick. 

That is where we disagree. I don't call it progress. I call it fear. I'm not saying I don't blame any manager for being fearful of his job but I do believe AN is looking over his shoulder and worrying about his position. That is what the OP was about.

I can't speak about today's game, I didn't see it. But I still wonder why we had to change the defence, weaken it IMO, O'Neill, skipper, out next, back in next. Is he that different from Dorrans? Is his game so completely different? Tettey put us on the slippery slope last week and he stays. I don't believe anyone can honestly explain why these changes.

 

[ZLF]

We concede the midfield when being too negative to try and shore up the defence.   The second half 451 shows what happens when the players implement the managers plans.  

4231 is needed at the mo because of the inherent defensive incompetence and Neil's reaction to the 6-2 defeat was excessive.     Improve the back line and the managers preferred 4141 becomes viable again,  supporting attacking plays seen last season with a high pressing line.

For me 442,  beyond a last ditch salvage effort, is really not an option without upgrading both the back four and the midfield by middle Eastern level investment 

 

[Canaryboy]

I'm also not entirely sure he is quite 100% match fit yet either following his injury.

There is only one way to become match fit, and that is to play matches.

 

[Killiecanary]

That is where we disagree. I don't call it progress. I call it fear. I'm not saying I don't blame any manager for being fearful of his job but I do believe AN is looking over his shoulder and worrying about his position. That is what the OP was about.

I can't speak about today's game, I didn't see it. But I still wonder why we had to change the defence, weaken it IMO, O'Neill, skipper, out next, back in next. Is he that different from Dorrans? Is his game so completely different? Tettey put us on the slippery slope last week and he stays. I don't believe anyone can honestly explain why these changes.

I'm not sure I call it progress either eaton - my point about the old fashioned front 6 wasn't entirely ironic!  I would much prefer to see all out attacking football every week...but not if we are the only team doing it and we get humped every week! 

I think the midfield changes you mention are more about the intense competition we have there - we have 6 players of similar standard filling 2 positions, but who have all very slightly different strengths.  I agree I wouldn't mind seeing more settled team for a bit now...at least until the January window - the next 4 games.  FWIW I would have Rudd, Martin, Bassong, Bennett, Olsson, Mulumbu, O'Neill, Redmond, Brady, Howson (or Hoolahan depending on the game) and MBokani.  What would you have?

 

[eatonparkboy]

I'm not sure I call it progress either eaton - my point about the old fashioned front 6 wasn't entirely ironic!  I would much prefer to see all out attacking football every week...but not if we are the only team doing it and we get jumped every week! 

I think the midfield changes you mention are more about the intense competition we have there - we have 6 players of similar standard filling 2 positions, but who have all very slightly different strengths.  I agree I wouldn't mind seeing a. It more settled team for a bit now...at least until the January window - the next 4 games.  FWIW I would have Rudd, Martin, Bassong, Bennett, Olsson, Mulumbu, O'Neill, Redmond, Brady, Howson (or Hoolahan depending on the game) and MBokani.  What would you have?

Good question Killie.

I believe Rudd was judged MOTM so I'm happy with him. As I didn't see the game I have no idea why Wisdom was taken off. But I believe we have to ask the defence to defend first and foremost. And if you are looking for four defenders then I think it has to be Martin, Bennett Bassong Ollson. One thing I do hope is that we use these guys better at corners and free kicks as they can win the ball as was shown yesterday.

I think midfield is probably a weaker area than we think. And I don't know if its tactics or not. Redmond has pace and a shot but as we have been discussing, he is now recreating his form under Hughton when he wouldn't go past anyone. If he can't them drop him. If he can but is told not to then we are in trouble tactics wise. Mulumbu was brought in as the glue to hold it all together. Why isn't he starting? Howson's form and confidence is shot to pieces but I believe there is a good attacking central midfield general in there. Jarvis must be close to fitness and must be a starter. And as much as I love Wes, I think he now becoming more of an impact player.

I would play Brady in the Wes role. He has it all and at times is crowded by Ollson and the lack of someone to link up with forward. And I understand he missed a sitter but believe Jerome is still our best option up front.

So I would opt for, injury problems over of course:

Rudd

Martin Bennett Bassong Ollson

Redmond Mulumbu Howson Jarvis

Brady

Jerome

Five points from our last nine games is not the form to keep us up. Next game is against a troubled and split club. They will be thinking about a comfortable way to get three points and lift the pressure a touch. Especially on a manager who embarrasses himself at every press conference. Our manager has no such pressure and can only gain next week. He was bold last season and I admired that. I believe now is the time for the board to tell him, your job is safe even if we go down and we back you in the transfer window (normal NCFC fiscal policy accepted). But go out and give it a go.

Up to October we would never even considered a post like this. But pressure is what a Prem manager faces and I don't believe AN has responded as we hoped. But I don't think, apart from the complete knobheads, that there will be any complaints if he resorts to the exciting play he brought last spring.