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Norwich City vs Nottingham Forest(away) Tuesday 21st November.

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hogesar

hogesar

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We know Mashiter is Webbers route out to media and the fans have already been crticial about past decisions so its an easy go to for Webber.

I like Webber but like GJP says hes essentially buying himself more time by pointing to poor decisions previously. The only slight conundrum is the owners havent changed and they oversaw all the problems Webber is referring too.
 
Fenway Frank

Fenway Frank

Well-Known Member
I have to say that to think Webber is manipulating 25k supporters is a strange way of seeing things ( no offence to you at all gjp) We all knew there needed to be changes and it would take time. Yes, the performance against Barnsley was particularly poor but one transfer window and 5 months really isn’t enough time and certainly is way way too soon to suggest that Webber’s time could be running out.
 
G

GJP

Well-Known Member
I have to say that to think Webber is manipulating 25k supporters is a strange way of seeing things ( no offence to you at all gjp) We all knew there needed to be changes and it would take time. Yes, the performance against Barnsley was particularly poor but one transfer window and 5 months really isn’t enough time and certainly is way way too soon to suggest that Webber’s time could be running out.
Manipulation/persuasion whatever. Playing people. Expectation management.

How many transfer windows and how many months do you give Webber? I mean you've decided that what he's had so far isn't enough so does that mean you know what would be enough?
 
morty

morty

Moderator
Staff member
I have to say that to think Webber is manipulating 25k supporters is a strange way of seeing things ( no offence to you at all gjp) We all knew there needed to be changes and it would take time. Yes, the performance against Barnsley was particularly poor but one transfer window and 5 months really isn’t enough time and certainly is way way too soon to suggest that Webber’s time could be running out.
Indeed, the word manipulation implies dishonesty.
 
morty

morty

Moderator
Staff member
We know Mashiter is Webbers route out to media and the fans have already been crticial about past decisions so its an easy go to for Webber.

I like Webber but like GJP says hes essentially buying himself more time by pointing to poor decisions previously. The only slight conundrum is the owners havent changed and they oversaw all the problems Webber is referring too.
For me its about realism. Over recent years we have wanted to establish ourselves as a Premiership club at all costs. I'll put 7.5 million for Naismith up there as an example. We spent more and more on players, and more importantly on their contracts, assuming we had cracked it, that our financial model could beat the odds and establish us. And that was maybe doable 5 years ago, but now? I'm not so sure. But once the board went down that path with McNally we very much developed tunnel vision, and as a result a lot of longer term things like the academy and Colney were ignored. In some way we wanted the best of both worlds, to be at the top table, but still work within our community club model. 

Under our current financial terms the very best we can hope for now is yo-yo, thats the reality of the situation. I think Webber has brought the board down to earth with a bump and we are where we are. I don't think he is dishonest in the slightest, or manipulating anyone, that is nonsense. And I don't think he needs to buy anyone more time, fans really need to start recognising the size of the restructuring that is happening, dry their eyes, and get on board with it, because unless we get external investment (whole other issue) then they are going to have to get used to it.

In some ways the fans are equally to blame. The meteoric rise through the leagues under Lambert fooled a lot of people that this was the norm, and we would just rise and rise, and it would never end. I remember clearly phrases being used like "I don't see any reason why we can't become an established top ten side". The board very much reacted to a lot of fans unrealistic expectations perhaps.

I remember some years ago, ironically when we were following "The Charlton model" when Charlton fans got the hump that they weren't top six, and they sacked Alan Curbishley. Now look where they are. You could also look at the moaning that Arsenal fans do, as an example of expectation management.
 
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G

GJP

Well-Known Member
Fwiw, I have always accepted Norwich as a yo-yo club. I treat anything more as a bonus. I expect promotions and relegations to occur a few more times in my life - assuming I am lucky enough to be here to see them.

And I don't think I've chanted for a manager to be sacked. Though I may have made an exception for Glenn Roeder purely for being a c*nt.
 
Fenway Frank

Fenway Frank

Well-Known Member
Fwiw, I have always accepted Norwich as a yo-yo club. I treat anything more as a bonus. I expect promotions and relegations to occur a few more times in my life - assuming I am lucky enough to be here to see them.

And I don't think I've chanted for a manager to be sacked. Though I may have made an exception for Glenn Roeder purely for being a c*nt.
I agree completely, including the bit about Roeder ?

It does my head in when some supporters give it the old “why aren’t we Southampton/Bournemouth/ Swansea” etc. They are currently having their time in the sun, the same as we have in the past, but they will be relegated the same as we did. There are only a few clubs that can say they are in the prem long term.
 
hogesar

hogesar

Well-Known Member
For me its about realism. Over recent years we have wanted to establish ourselves as a Premiership club at all costs. I'll put 7.5 million for Naismith up there as an example. We spent more and more on players, and more importantly on their contracts, assuming we had cracked it, that our financial model could beat the odds and establish us. And that was maybe doable 5 years ago, but now? I'm not so sure. But once the board went down that path with McNally we very much developed tunnel vision, and as a result a lot of longer term things like the academy and Colney were ignored. In some way we wanted the best of both worlds, to be at the top table, but still work within our community club model. 

Under our current financial terms the very best we can hope for now is yo-yo, thats the reality of the situation. I think Webber has brought the board down to earth with a bump and we are where we are. I don't think he is dishonest in the slightest, or manipulating anyone, that is nonsense. And I don't think he needs to buy anyone more time, fans really need to start recognising the size of the restructuring that is happening, dry their eyes, and get on board with it, because unless we get external investment (whole other issue) then they are going to have to get used to it.

In some ways the fans are equally to blame. The meteoric rise through the leagues under Lambert fooled a lot of people that this was the norm, and we would just rise and rise, and it would never end. I remember clearly phrases being used like "I don't see any reason why we can't become an established top ten side". The board very much reacted to a lot of fans unrealistic expectations perhaps.

I remember some years ago, ironically when we were following "The Charlton model" when Charlton fans got the hump that they weren't top six, and they sacked Alan Curbishley. Now look where they are. You could also look at the moaning that Arsenal fans do, as an example of expectation management.
Unfortunately you can't blame the fans for it. If the board reacted and lapped up fans over inflated expectations then that is their fault. They are on the board for a reason, us fans aren't.

We've obviously made some mistakes like any club but Webber seems pretty intent on making clear he thinks the club made awful decisions that they're now having to make up for. That buys Webber time so GJP is correct in saying it's a free card towards Expectation Management. The reality is had he not come in at all the expectation this season would have been one last push for promotion until the Parachute Payments run out. By implementing the structure they've almost given themselves an excuse out of that one.

The negative is Webber can keep saying these decisions were poor till he's blue in the face but the people that oversaw those decisions still run this club. If they're as bad as is being made out, then how will Webber succeed?
 
morty

morty

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Staff member
Unfortunately you can't blame the fans for it. If the board reacted and lapped up fans over inflated expectations then that is their fault. They are on the board for a reason, us fans aren't.

We've obviously made some mistakes like any club but Webber seems pretty intent on making clear he thinks the club made awful decisions that they're now having to make up for. That buys Webber time so GJP is correct in saying it's a free card towards Expectation Management. The reality is had he not come in at all the expectation this season would have been one last push for promotion until the Parachute Payments run out. By implementing the structure they've almost given themselves an excuse out of that one.

The negative is Webber can keep saying these decisions were poor till he's blue in the face but the people that oversaw those decisions still run this club. If they're as bad as is being made out, then how will Webber succeed?
I'm not blaming the fans, but their expectations and actions will always be a factor. Fans got Worthington sacked, the same with Hughton. You could say it isn't the case at other clubs, but where your board members are fans too, such as here, then they are more likely to listen to fans views. Did it make sense spending 7.5m on Naismith? Financially, most certainly not, but fans had got all Billy big bollox at that point, and expected us to spend money that other Premiership clubs do. I don't remember many even blinking an eye at the time of the transfer.

Yes, in hindsight some of the decisions were awful, specifically in contracts, and they will remain a millstone round our neck for a few seasons yet. But obviously he can't keep using the excuse, that would be ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as expecting everything to change in 5 months.....

Webber will succeed by making tough decisions that a lot of fans won't like.
 
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Canaryboy

Canaryboy

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Expectation (pressure) management from Webber and his man in the media 
I managed to ascertain that Mashiter is actually a Norwich fan who relocated to the West Midlands, explains why he is interested. Mutual friend on facebook, Mashiter had a photo of Wembley full of yellow shirts (play off final) as his cover photo. May well be able to pick up the phone to Webber and vice versa, and Webber may be using him a bit, but he's not Webber's old uni mate or some sort of convenient paid-by-the-tweet mercenary. 
 
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G

GJP

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I managed to ascertain that Mashiter is actually a Norwich fan who relocated to the West Midlands, explains why he is interested. Mutual friend on facebook, Mashiter had a photo of Wembley full of yellow shirts (play off final) as his cover photo. May well be able to pick up the phone to Webber and vice versa, and Webber may be using him a bit, but he's not Webber's old uni mate or some sort of convenient paid-by-the-tweet mercenary. 
Yeah it's not really about the connection. It's just obvious that Webber uses Mashiter to get his message out.
 
hogesar

hogesar

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Morty, agree with much of that but at the moment the fans need something they can dig their claws into.

Look at the unbeaten run - we didnt play great football and we remained pretty poor at home but not conceding gave the fans something to look to as signs of things moving in the right direction. 

The fact weve seen little of that in the past 4 games and also, if we're totally honest, dont really look like scoring is a recipe for disaster with supporters - and it doesnt matter if your personal expectation is promotion or fighting relegation, the basic requirement ends the same.
 
morty

morty

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Staff member
Without listing a load of excuses, I'll go on to do just that.

The massive turnover of personnel cannot be underestimated, you're not just dealing with players getting used to new team mates and a new coach, but in a fair few cases getting used to a whole new league in a new country.

Injuries, lets not underestimate what has gone on. Jamal Lewis and Pritch looked nailed on starters pre season, we lost both. We hit upon a system with 2 DM's, then Tettey gets injured. We have Cam, who I love, but he can't score for toffee, and we have Nelson, who has had injury problem after problem (and whatever hell the else is going on behind the scenes) and even last night didn't look sharp. Wildschutt, jury still out for me, Murphy, clearly not as good as his brother, Marley Watkins, still not sure there.

So frankly, if you want to be realistic, its a miracle we are as well placed in the league as we are!
 
Fenway Frank

Fenway Frank

Well-Known Member
A couple of players coming back from injury, plus Godfrey coming back from Shrewsbury would really help too
 
Canaryboy

Canaryboy

Well-Known Member
I mentioned earlier though, if Thompson didn't get injured we might not have signed Trybull.

I curious as to whether we'll try and put Naismith in the shop window before January, see if he can grab a goal or two and spur some interest.

Best we can hope for with him is probably a loan to Rangers with them covering a portion of his wages, then hoping that he does well enough there for them to offer a permanent in the summer (but with us probably still paying half his wages or something next season).

I still think trying to swap Rudd for McGovern in January might be a smart idea, then get Matthews and Rudd competing for the number 1 shirt if we can't get Gunn back on loan.

I've got a feeling Raggatt will stay at Lincoln for the season unless we get a decent offer for Klose, but I'm looking forward to seeing Raggatt in a yellow shirt... good feeling about him.
 
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morty

morty

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Staff member
I mentioned earlier though, if Thompson didn't get injured we might not have signed Trybull.

I curious as to whether we'll try and put Naismith in the shop window before January, see if he can grab a goal or two and spur some interest.

Best we can hope for with him is probably a loan to Rangers with them covering a portion of his wages, then hoping that he does well enough there for them to offer a permanent in the summer (but with us probably still paying half his wages or something next season).

I still think trying to swap Rudd for McGovern in January might be a smart idea, then get Matthews and Rudd competing for the number 1 shirt if we can't get Gunn back on loan.

I've got a feeling Raggatt will stay at Lincoln for the season unless we get a decent offer for Klose, but I'm looking forward to seeing Raggatt in a yellow shirt... good feeling about him.
I wouldn't say no to Naismith in the team right now frankly, but its obvious we need to offload him before he goes further past his sell by date.

I think Remi will be No 1 here next season, I think Angus will be playing in the Prem next season.
 
hogesar

hogesar

Well-Known Member
Yeah but I counter all that with even teams like Ipswich are doing better than us.

Im personally willing to give this season a free pass but generally we need to see things in the right direction and barely picking up 3 points at home all season isnt really doing it. Webber and Farke won't last the season if the home form stays as it is.
 
morty

morty

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Yeah but I counter all that with even teams like Ipswich are doing better than us.

Im personally willing to give this season a free pass but generally we need to see things in the right direction and barely picking up 3 points at home all season isnt really doing it. Webber and Farke won't last the season if the home form stays as it is.
What is their injury situation? How many players did they buy in the summer? Did they change their entire coaching staff too?

For the record, they are 3 points ahead of us  ;)

Oh and its November, nowt won then.
 
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