So how long is a reasonable amount of time for Neil Adams?

[Dubai Mark]

I was going to post this topic on "the other side" if you know where I mean, but thought it would get a more measured response on here and without the accusations of me being a Adams hater or similar, which I am not.

That said, I must stress that NA was not my choice, I wanted experience, and I did feel at the beginning of the season that it would be the strength of our squad that would get us back up and that because of this we could afford a rookie manager learning his trade at the helm....or words like that.

I have actually been reasonably impressed by a lot of things NA has done and feel that he has settled in to the job relatively well. I did question early doors the way we started games so slowly and couldnt dominate games throughout, and am now, like many others are, a little worried by the recent run against what have been average sides. Now I must stress that I did expect a few ups and downs, as this league can be tough at times as we all know from our previous seasons in it.

A friend of mine said to me the other day that "we look mid table" that got me thinking,and other friends who are City supporters and who go regularly tell me that they are pretty frustrated by the situation and feel that we are definitely under performing.....and even look a little clueless at times.

As mentioned,despite NA not having been my choice, I am very keen to see him and his coaching team succeed, as I really believe in continuity at our club, we really don't need more disruption, and it was for this reason I was one of those who kept backing CH perhaps longer than I should have.

The bottom line though is, and a few will disagree, that we have one of the best if not THE best squad in this league (perhaps better than last year's EPL squad) and yet we are right now "struggling" against sides who we should be beating......its no use dominating and creating IF you do not win matches. The side when I have seen them, and in the other matches recently that I havnt unfortunately, seem to have a problem playing at a high tempo, and my concern is that the use of that great squad has been a little limited and there doesnt appear to be a viable "plan B".

So, I know that my tendency will be to give NA and his team as long as possible, probably at least until the January window, with the target being top six by then and within six points of top spot, that would be fair I feel with the squad at his disposal. What do you think? What is a reasonable amount of time and where should we be come January to please you?

 

[GazzaTCC]

My view pre-season was, and still is, you have to give a manager (not just Adams) at least a quarter of a season (11 games) preferably a third (15 games) before passing judgement.

We passed the first benchmark by being top of the league and now we're approaching the second (with two games to go before today's game) but in fifth place and four points from top.

Having said that, it's not just about games played and league position, it's about how we set up for games, how we play and then, ultimately, results. And I'm guessing that's where Neil is "failing" in the eyes of some.

He almost started too well (after the first game) and everyone started to think that we'd romp this league. That was never going to happen.

I don't agree with the comment that we look mid table. We've yet to play a team who has really tested us for long periods. Usually, it's the other way round, albeit we've yet to turn possession into easy wins and plentiful goals.

Based on what we've seen so far, I'd be genuinely surprised if we're outside the top 6 at the end of the season.

So, where does that leave me in terms of going forwards? I'd say let's hit the 15 game mark and, providing that there are no disasters, review regularly thereafter.

 

[ZLF]

Tough question.     The resource we have used this season demands that we finish top 6 and my personal view pre season had that as a minimum standard - outside the top 6 is an unmitigated failure.

Right now, to echo Gazza, we are still creating and mainly dominating games,  just goals and so results are frustrating but not disasterous.    However another win is needed and soon - just to re-energise confidence.   The strong start has merely heightened expectation and so the frustration is disproportionate to the current position in the table.

All managers are just 4-6 games away from dismissal - for me that applies to adams too but I dont think we will lose 4 from the next 6 games that put him under threat.     However that does not mean the current murmuring of malcontents will not crescendo,  and I admit I could find my voices amongst them depending on teh displays and tactical choices.

He could allay my concerns by loaning in a wide left loanee from the prem top balance our attack...

 

[Salopian]

What criteria are you going to apply, in addition. 

A top six position established?

A top two position?

Attractive attacking play - rather subjective.

Etc, etc.

One problem with "how many matches", is that any cut-off point is arbitrary. After ten matches, twenty, twenty five, is that If after two or three unlucky matches (for whatever reason), we dip below the required league position, and it may or not be a permanent decline, what do we say?

Clearly once he has all players fit and ready, consistently poor performances or failures to win, would be a serious point. I am not prepared to stipulate in advance. We have suffered four very disappointing results, but in most we dominated play and created plenty of chances to score. We have conceded very few goals, although too many to obtain points. At least one of our main players has shown inconsistency and the two early strikers have gone off the boil recently.

The only thing I could really level at the manager thus far is that the the problem of finding a way to defeat a solid defence erected to stop us has not been found. Or are the players following his tactics, e.g. quick passing and raids down the wings?

 

[the bristolnest]

Whilst there will always be malcontents I really don't think that NA is "failing" at all. I would like to see the team set up differently with a five man midfield using a striker as a wide man but that doesn't equate to "he doesnt know what he's doing".I want this to work out for our club as I don't see much of a future in re-employing sacked managers and would like us to take a coaching academy approach.

Obviously if we are midtable mediocraty in January then I will revise my views.

 

[SussexYellow]

First can I say that I am concerned. However we need to keep some perspective.

I have only followed the game today on the forums and I have gathered that we had a dire first half, and then dominated the second but were denied by 3 brilliant goalkeeping saves. BBC show we allowed just one shot on target. Not a disaster by any means!

The plus side is at least a tactical shake up was tried. Hopefully we will have learned something from it and can improve going forward. We may have slipped a place but we are a point nearer the top. We remain in the top 6, and nobody in the division is finding consistency easy to come by.

However the concern is that the pattern of games is repeating and recent results are disappointing. But we knew from the start that we have a novice manager, that he would need to learn on the job and that the ride would be bumpy. With hindsight it could be said we should have appointed an experienced manager, But we didn't and we are where we are.

I doubt if the board are even considering dismissal as our current situation is far from a disaster. You can not sack your manager every time a team has a poor run. So for me until we start losing touch with the top 6, or it is evident that the players are not playing for him then that is the time he gets. But let's hope he rediscovers the midas touch and gets us back to winning ways.

OTBC

 

[eatonparkboy]

I didn't see today's game so cannot comment but it appears to have followed the pattern of the last few games. And I do wonder why the manager is under pressure from some quarters when we are merely one win from the top of the table. I would be worried, particularly if our name started with B, if we were at the bottom end of the table.

So are those wavering already doing so because the football is dire or because we are not top. You only need to be in the top two after 46 games. 

 

[Surgeryman]

Appointing Adams was a gamble and the cheap option, simple as. I would persevere for now as although we should be in a much better position than we are, it is not a bad position we find ourselves with still dos many games to go. However, he is making some fundamental mistakes in my opinion, that he needs to sort otherwise the fans will start to turn ( which is starting to develop).

 

[Din]

I'm right behind Adams and have been since the day he got the job. I personally would give him til Christmas, and if we're in a really bad position (outside the top 6) then if I were in charge I'd consider sacking him. But I don't think we'll need to, as I think it's only a matter of time until our form picks up again. 

 

[ZLF]

Yesterdays games highlighted the concerns for me and also a glimpse of hope in that he did change it eventually.

A truly baffling team selection (obsession with two strikers who have no understanding,  Russ at cb,  whitttaker on the pitch,  and a diamond (that alllowed sheff weds into a game they should not have been close to) packed full of turgid central midfielders who had created a grand total of 5 goals over three seasons of play.    In was no shock horror surprise this resulted in narrow, slow, predictable ineffective play that allowed weds a greater grip on the game than their capability demanded was down to poor managerial choices.   Weds were poor and we lowered ourselves to their level s much that so said weds looked good (they didnt - it was truly a dire first half of football - by our design) 

Oneil improved things but we only really turned the screw when adams finally reacted toour soporific approach and sent redmond  on,  we gained width and attacking intent which we failed to capitalise on.    

What that responsde did highlight was how poor weds really were at the mo and how much of the game we had wasted in playing 4 cms in a diamond (on those 4 in the first half only tettey (92%) had a pass success exceeding 70% - all three deserved to be subbed) when supposedly trying to win.   

Had we taken this approach (4231) we may have simply missed more chances (its what we continue to do) but conversely we would have had weds more on the back foot and been able to give hooper some pitch time instead?   It was a clear two points lost due to the manager.

so we have tried a flat 442, a diamond, a bizarre 4222 and 4231.   To complete the list it must be time for a 352 or variation?  It suggests at some indecision uncertainty in how to effect a change and a degree of stubborness in refusing to see acccept that whittaker and martin on the pitch together and playing two strikers is limiting the team

Boltons team selection again becomes hugely indicative of how Adams is coping.     I hope its not a hat trick of wrong team and formation choices with the starting 11

 

[Yellow Fever]

IMO, the halfway point in the season will indicate just how we are doing. The 4-2-3-1 is far and away our best formation but the diamond wasn't a disaster. Had just one of the good chances gone in, we'd have won the game easily. I can't understand criticism of a defense that only allowed the home side 4 shots, only one of which was on target. Adams clearly wants a high pace of play but some players are still finding it hard to adjust to that, but hopefully that will improve in time. I still feel that playing both Johnson and Tettey against packed defenses reduces effectiveness and thus pace of play. A 4-2-3-1 against Bolton is the way to go IMO, with Howson in the hole flanked by Lafferty and Redmond and Tettey and O'Neil in CM. 

 

[ZLF]

For me the defence is the springboard that allows the attack to function.

Russ at right back    2.3 points per game  (6 games)

Whit at right back     1.1 points per game  

One is promotion winning form,  the other is mediocrity.

We have not lost a game with russ at right back

 

[eatonparkboy]

Does anybody know if Olsson could play right back? Maybe him at RB and Garrido back in. Despite the talk of formations, one area that is important, correctly pointed out by ZLF, is right back. Especially if we were to revert to the diamond.

 

[Canaryboy]

We could really do with just smashing somebody 5-0, as soon as possible, for an instant feel good factor amongst players and fans and to give Adams some breathing space. No better time to do that than at home to a team in the bottom three, e.g. Friday night. I'd take a win however it comes though.

 

[Din]

Does anybody know if Olsson could play right back? Maybe him at RB and Garrido back in. Despite the talk of formations, one area that is important, correctly pointed out by ZLF, is right back. Especially if we were to revert to the diamond.

I'd be surprised if he could tbh. It's one thing playing a winger on their weaker side, but I don't think you can do the same with full backs. As a defender you always get told to show the attacker down the line. If you're a left footed player playing right back, and you show a player down the line, then you're showing them onto your weaker side, in contrast to a right footed player playing right back. 

 

[Canaryboy]

Does anybody know if Olsson could play right back? Maybe him at RB and Garrido back in. Despite the talk of formations, one area that is important, correctly pointed out by ZLF, is right back. Especially if we were to revert to the diamond.

Doubt he could play right back, but he has often played left midfield for Sweden and was known to play there for Blackburn too. I can't remember him having a single game in that position for us, yet Hughton even gave Garrido a game on left midfield last season!

With us having had both Wes and Lafferty on the left this season, and Murphy more of an impact player for now, I'd have thought we'd try a combination of Garrido at left back and Olsson at left midfield.

Perhaps this would fail miserably, but it would at least be worth a try. Garrido looked pretty decent earlier in the season and Olsson is decent going forward. This surely has to be preferred to Lafferty wide left?

A team that I'd really like to see given a try is:

                              Ruddy

Martin         Turner         Miquel*      Garrido

                   Tettey          Howson

Bennett              Redmond               Olsson

                      Hooper / Jerome

A lot of pace in that team, but with both wingers being capable defenders and both full backs capable of putting in a decent cross on the overlap. This season I've noticed that Johnson is often being dragged out left to assist Olsson, because neither Wes nor Lafferty are famed for their defensive abilities.

I've stuck an asterix next to Miquel because I've never seen him kick a ball, he's left footed though so he's in for balance (but could replace with either Cuellar or Hooiveld).

Garrido and Bennett are two players who I don't think we are using as much as we should. Not saying that they should be lining up week in week out, but we've got a big squad and should be using it more, both are very capable players.     

 

[Ankles]

There isn't actually a lot wrong in my eyes.  Hitting the wood work and/or opposition keepers making decent saves means we are carving chances out.  Should the strikers be making their shots un-saveable? Arguably in some instances yes, Grabban on Saturday had plenty of time to make sure of the finish, but Jeromes' efforts (x 2) he did all he could and should have done

That's probably why Adams is still pushing Plan A so hard, however the true test of a managers ability really isn't wholesale changes week in and week out but fine nuance tweaks that make all the difference. 

If we're Top 6 at Xmas, and I see no reason why we won't be, then we'll be in good shape to finish the season strong as the depth in our Squad really will pay dividends and the games mount up

 

[Safri15]

If we had an in form striker we wouldn't be having this convo. I've said it quite a few times now but I still think giving Hooper more game time and a few starts will help him get the match fitness and sharpness that every striker needs. Persisting with Grabban and Jerome when off form isn't going to get us anywhere. IMO they both aren't good strikers anyway and require far too many chances to score.

Jerome did well for us at the start of his Norwich career, but that is completely against his normal form for any other team he's ever played for. He has only managed over 10 goals in a season twice in his whole career. I wasn't impressed with his signing and was made to eat my words, but I think the long run will unfortunately prove me right.

Same with Grabban. He has had 1 good season last year, and started well again this year. But other than that, he's looked good in League 2. Even his league 1 season for Bounemouth he got 13 goals in 42 games. Fair enough he hasn't had many chances to prove his worth at this level and he has that right, but I don't think he is a top of the championship striker.

So, maybe Adams is to blame for buying and playing poor strikers. But IMO, other than this he hasn't really done too much wrong. The pace of our play needs improving, but Adams wants that and its the players that seem to be struggling to put into action what Adams wants so not sure if you can call that an Adams downfall or not.

 

[Yellow Fever]

IMO, some of our players are still struggling to play the high tempo game Adams is after, but I disagree about Grabban and Jerome, both of whom have shown that they can score goals at this level. Once the goals start going in again, things will change quite rapidly, starting with Bolton hopefully.

 

[Monty13]

In answer to the OP - a season.

People got carried away with the run we had, we were never going to romp this league and it was inevitable with a rookie manager there were going to be poor patches. We have a strong squad, it's not unbeatable, nor is every player the envy of other clubs in this league, we have some gems, we also have a lot of players who deserve to play their football at this level.

He needs a good January window (a new RB is an absolute must) and I fully expect a strong end to the season, I genuinely can't see us sliding into mid table obscurity. 

It's early days still on this experiment and I still believe Neil and the new structure the board put in place will work and continue to evolve over the next season and beyond, it needs time, people need to be patient (not Hughton patient, but reasonably so).