So, where did all the money go?

[morty]

You haven't discussed the article, merely highlighted that you don't like Mick Dennis, and implied "Well he would say this now".

I'm judging the validity of your opinion based on words you have written, not who you are.

 

[morty]

Its an absolute irony that the very people who should be reading this and taking it in are the very ones who won't bother, and reach for their pitchfork instead 

 

[GJP]

You haven't discussed the article, merely highlighted that you don't like Mick Dennis, and implied "Well he would say this now".

I'm judging the validity of your opinion based on words you have written, not who you are.

Well actually my first post was "Naismith". Which was my very succinct (but perhaps undetected) way of agreeing with the drift of the article.

 

[morty]

Great stuff.

 

[GJP]

Many thanks.

 

[morty]

Good article and pretty much how I've always perceived it.

By virtue of pretty much keeping our squad together in our last promotion season, and wages going back up 40% (for those players here for the prior relegation), we went up with a Premier League wage bill... very different scenario to those teams who go up on a normal Championship budget and then have a big pot of money to spend. 

Really paying the price for that January transfer window gamble, and worth noting that our loss during that Premier League season (£107.5m - £97.8m = £9.7m) is basically what we paid for Naismith and Jarvis - £10.5m(ish) - (or equal to what we've agreed to pay, if due in installments). 

I think its clear that we just need a big reset, and to go back to a normal Championship budget, and then try and get promoted on a Championship budget. It means saying goodbye to Klose, Jerome, Tettey, Naismith, Jarvis, Hoolahan, Martin, Oliviera, and McGovern over the next 18 months and trying to build up from there. Most of those have contracts expiring by summer 2019. 

I couldn't write Pinto because that would hurt too much, can't we stick a quid on match tickets just to keep Ivo  :wacko:

Unfortunately when you don't have much money, the importance of making every penny work increases massively. Would Man U be bothered if they had signed Ricky van and Naismith? Doubt it. McNally made a huge gamble by offering 3.5 year deals when we only had 2 years of parachute payments left. Now I guess you weigh it up at the time, but I'm not so sure that players that were offered these deals were players that other clubs were waiting to pounce on.

That was a definite mistake (in hindsight obviously) and it very much gambled on us coming straight back up. Perhaps quantified by the fact that Alex Neil had got us promoted before.

Perhaps this is why David McNally is no longer here.....

Its a catch 22, should a board listen to fans or not? Though its pretty obvious what happens when they don't.

 

[hogesar]

Its a pointless article but I understand MD wanting to release some positive material just before a difficult AGM.

I understand a few idiots have been claiming the board are pocketing money but its hardly like any of those are going to read a Dennis article.

For 99% of fans its how weve managed to spunk all the money, not where its gone. Which makes the fans pretty much on the same page as our Sporting director, who also finds it hard to believe. On that basis the board are certainly culpable and no Dennis article should get away from that.

 

[morty]

Its a pointless article but I understand MD wanting to release some positive material just before a difficult AGM.

I understand a few idiots have been claiming the board are pocketing money but its hardly like any of those are going to read a Dennis article.

For 99% of fans its how weve managed to spunk all the money, not where its gone. Which makes the fans pretty much on the same page as our Sporting director, who also finds it hard to believe. On that basis the board are certainly culpable and no Dennis article should get away from that.

So sack the board then? Is that the answer? They delivered us 4 years of Premiership football, thats what we all wanted, right? Fans demanded ambition, and thats what they got.

We spunked the money away because we were shopping in shops we couldn't afford, because thats what we all demanded. And the board took their eye off the ball by putting too much faith in one man, who assured them it would all be okay, because we got lucky for a while. 

Sometimes you just have to be happy with what you have. I give you Charlton, whose fans kicked up a stink because they weren't top 6 in the Prem, resulting in Curbishley being sacked. They had about 9000 at their league one game tonight. Be careful what you wish for, maybe a bit of prudence was the right thing after all.

I'm pretty sure the board know they have got things wrong, the same as every other footballing board in the entire world, and we are about 5 months in to them implementing something to put it right. Lets just wait and see, eh?

Oh and the article isn't pointless at all if it helps put straight some of the utter nonsense bandied about in certain places. Course, some would rather believe their own version of events.....

 

[Canaryboy]

I still think stripping us of high earners and starting again is the right thing to do. I don't really understand the meltdown and bickering which is currently going on. We knew it was going to be tough. 

I'm personally looking forward to the Raggatts and Morris's and Matthews etc coming in and getting a chance to make a name for themselves. A lot of players made a name for themselves here under Paul Lambert. 

Would I swap Heckingbottom for Farke? Probably, yes, but I don't really understand what Norwich fans want or expect at the minute to be honest. Difficult time for the club, next 18 months are critical, we'll be on the up after that with a young and hungry squad of players who need promotion to ensure their financial security.... players like Bassong and Mulumbu were made men by 25, planning retirement on the beach at 30...... out with the old, in with the Raggatts! 

Seen Raggatt play a couple of 90's, fans are going to love that geezer.... proper centre half,  not one of those metropolitan 21st century centre halfs like Ryan Benett, he's a Terry Butcher. 

 

[Canaryboy]

For 99% of fans its how weve managed to spunk all the money, not where its gone. Which makes the fans pretty much on the same page as our Sporting director, who also finds it hard to believe. On that basis the board are certainly culpable and no Dennis article should get away from that.

Yes the board are culpable for not reigning in McNally, who had clearly turned to a different page of the book towards the end, and then appointing a spiv as his replacement. 

But can't really change the past now can we, they've also made some good decisions in the past too... like appointing McNally and Bowkett in the first place at just the right time, managing to get us debt free, and hopefully now introducing a successful new structure with Webber in charge which is fit for the modern era. 

Everybody knows that Mick Dennis is an bumhole sniffer because he likes his seats in the directors box, but he does state pretty clearly how we've managed to spunk all the money.... we've not kept control of the wage budget, and spent more than we've earned, even in a Premier League season. 

Usually when there are big f*ck ups somebody has to be the fall guy. McNally offered to fall on his sword, they thought that was a good idea. So that's the answer, McNally made a pigs ear of things. Only the board can't come out and *bleep* him off, because if they do then that probably invalidates the NDA which would be pretty standard with any pay-off, so then McNally would get to write a book about his 5 years here... and perhaps that wouldn't be in everybodies best interests. We know for example that Paul Lambert's wife received some unpleasant texts from somebody at the club, and that may be one thing that we don't need to know more about. 

So either we forget about the past and look forward, or we have a nasty public argument playing out between Delia, Bowkett, and McNally, which will detract from the very important job that Webber has to do at a crucial juncture, next 18 months could determine whether we have any realistic prospect of a few more years in the Prermier League or are stuck here for decades like Ipswich and Nottingham Forest. 

We did get a few snidey tweets aimed towards Moxey from McNally. 

Probably best to just look forward. 

 

[morty]

The meltdown is because there is a core of people who don't like a woman in charge of their football club. And they can wheel out "I told you so's" about investment and shiny foreign owners. The same things that were spouted 10 years ago, and look at where we have been since then.

Long and short of it is that football fans are never happy, and will always want something they don't have #Arsenal.

Just think, we could be living the Premiership dream like West Brom, sacking Tony Pulis and getting Pardew 

 

[Fenway Frank]

The real shame is that staff that may earn 10/15k a year will lose their jobs as part of the cost cutting, which is a drop in the ocean when the club will be trying to save millions.

 

[morty]

The real shame is that staff that may earn 10/15k a year will lose their jobs as part of the cost cutting, which is a drop in the ocean when the club will be trying to save millions.

I think we have already completed any cost cutting like this? But you're right, while everyone is crying about wanting millions to spend on a new striker, theres someone who has lost their job in the canteen and is wondering how she'll afford Christmas.

 

[GJP]

The real shame is that staff that may earn 10/15k a year will lose their jobs as part of the cost cutting, which is a drop in the ocean when the club will be trying to save millions.

Spare a thought for Matt Jarvis. We may not be able to extend his contract unless we get promoted. Difficult, difficult times.

 

[morty]

The real shame is that staff that may earn 10/15k a year will lose their jobs as part of the cost cutting, which is a drop in the ocean when the club will be trying to save millions.

Just reading the similar thread on the other place, some of the anti club self entitlement from the usual suspects is cringeworthy.

Why aren't we Swansea/Bournmouth/Derby *delete as appropriate 

 

[Fenway Frank]

The usual posters enjoying stirring things.

 

[morty]

The usual posters enjoying stirring things.

Its pathetic though, the pouting is embarrassing. We have had fantastic times in the last ten years, I think in their heads it was going to just carry on and carry on, with us eventually being top six in the Prem. Sure, we all want the best for Norwich City, but at least have a smidgen of realism.

I genuinely 100% believe that Delia and Michael are good people with nothing more than the long term future of Norwich City at heart. It isn't "Delia's dolls house" and they aren't some kind of inward looking, power crazed xenophobes. If an offer of investment came along that genuinely benefited the club, they would take it. The idea they should just flog it on to any Tom, D1ck or Muhamed that strolls along with a derisory offer is just plain ridiculous.

Its not even stirring for stirrings sake though, I think some of them genuinely believe what they are saying makes sense. Still, I'm sure they will all be at the AGM tonight to give Delia a piece of their minds....

 

[hogesar]

So sack the board then? Is that the answer? They delivered us 4 years of Premiership football, thats what we all wanted, right? Fans demanded ambition, and thats what they got.

We spunked the money away because we were shopping in shops we couldn't afford, because thats what we all demanded. And the board took their eye off the ball by putting too much faith in one man, who assured them it would all be okay, because we got lucky for a while. 

Sometimes you just have to be happy with what you have. I give you Charlton, whose fans kicked up a stink because they weren't top 6 in the Prem, resulting in Curbishley being sacked. They had about 9000 at their league one game tonight. Be careful what you wish for, maybe a bit of prudence was the right thing after all.

I'm pretty sure the board know they have got things wrong, the same as every other footballing board in the entire world, and we are about 5 months in to them implementing something to put it right. Lets just wait and see, eh?

Oh and the article isn't pointless at all if it helps put straight some of the utter nonsense bandied about in certain places. Course, some would rather believe their own version of events.....

No, I don't think sacking the board is the answer although if someone did want to invest in the club or take it over we would be stupid not to pay attention to it.

In terms of fans demanding ambition and us getting it, I know what you're getting at but the initial promotion to the Premier League didn't come from boardroom ambition, we didn't spend big money but Lambert and Co with a straight talking McNally delivered. 

They have to be careful purely because they've decided to change the entire structure of the club probably a year or two too late. So we don't really have the funds to support it how we could have previously. If it all goes belly up and we get relegated this year who takes the blame? We can keep saying the board employ people to make decisions and therefore those employed by the club have to take the fall but if I keep employing the wrong people to take my business forwards then eventually fingers start pointing at me.

Hopefully we're just going through a temporary rough patch but obviously fans are going to be critical of the board when

1) Employ Moxey

2) Sack Moxey

3) Hold onto Alex Neil and show no intention of trying for the playoffs by getting someone in or making a decision quickly.

4) Irvine leaves at end of season disappointed that the club haven't told him or others what's happening with their jobs.

5) Webber stating that he can't believe how poor some of our infrastructure is considering we've been in the prem for 4 years. Consistently reminds the fans of bad decisions made by the club.

6) We're 15th and struggling.

Unfortunately it's a bit of a consistent list of balls ups. Hopefully history will repeat because last time this list looked to be too long for the owners we ended up with two straight promotions and back in the premier league..

 

[morty]

No, I don't think sacking the board is the answer although if someone did want to invest in the club or take it over we would be stupid not to pay attention to it.

In terms of fans demanding ambition and us getting it, I know what you're getting at but the initial promotion to the Premier League didn't come from boardroom ambition, we didn't spend big money but Lambert and Co with a straight talking McNally delivered. 

They have to be careful purely because they've decided to change the entire structure of the club probably a year or two too late. So we don't really have the funds to support it how we could have previously. If it all goes belly up and we get relegated this year who takes the blame? We can keep saying the board employ people to make decisions and therefore those employed by the club have to take the fall but if I keep employing the wrong people to take my business forwards then eventually fingers start pointing at me.

Hopefully we're just going through a temporary rough patch but obviously fans are going to be critical of the board when

1) Employ Moxey

2) Sack Moxey

3) Hold onto Alex Neil and show no intention of trying for the playoffs by getting someone in or making a decision quickly.

4) Irvine leaves at end of season disappointed that the club haven't told him or others what's happening with their jobs.

5) Webber stating that he can't believe how poor some of our infrastructure is considering we've been in the prem for 4 years. Consistently reminds the fans of bad decisions made by the club.

6) We're 15th and struggling.

Unfortunately it's a bit of a consistent list of balls ups. Hopefully history will repeat because last time this list looked to be too long for the owners we ended up with two straight promotions and back in the premier league..

This "not paying attention to potential investment" thing really has no factual foundations. I said above, if the right offer came in and it was the right thing for the long term good of Norwich City, they would look at it. And I'm pretty sure I have heard Delia say exactly that. You think we should have gambled with the structure when we were still in the Prem? Really?

Moxey - it happens. They must have seen something at interview that they liked, and he came with a good CV and a reputation for controlling the purse strings. And they were quick and decisive to act when it wasn't working out.

Alex Neil - Sacking managers at the drop of a hat rarely works, and costs money that we don't want to spend (unless the position becomes untenable) The board had invested a lot of money in keeping the Premiership squad together along with Alex Neil(who had got us promoted before), and it would have been daft to crumple all that up and start again too quickly. A managers record is only really viewed after the fact and with hindsight. I wonder how many would claim they would have Alex Neil back now?

Irvine would have been more of the same, and although his mini record was good, we weren't really playing for anything. Webber needed time to evaluate things and decide what needed doing. And if the overall good of the club is put before putting a few noses out of joint, I am fine with this.

Yes we are struggling. Literally months after the biggest overhaul in the clubs history. I don't think anyone promised instant success, but the main point the change needed to happen, it wasn't desirable, it was required.

Of course the board don't always get decisions right, does any football board get everything right? But I have said it before, if you don't have a lot of money there is a whole lot more riding on every single decision. Should we list the things the board did get right, or did they just get lucky?

 

[Canaryboy]

The argument seems to be that our club was a shambles for a year or 18 months up to this summer. 

If that is the gripe, then how about we don't rock the boat again now? 

Need to put our trust in Stone and Webber, they've only had one transfer window.... they need another 2 or 3. 

If fans believe in Webber and Stone then they'd be best advised to believe in the current board, because any new board is going to want to put their own men in... so there is no "I back Webber, but want Delia gone", that's cherry picking and far removed from reality. The reason Moxey left Wolves in the first place is because Wolves were taken over and the new owners put his new men in. 

Its all in our all out I'm afraid. I wouldn't shed any tears if we decided that Ed Balls was an embarrassment and found a local CEO as Chairman mind you, but in terms of an eight figure takeover... any new majority shareholder is going to start changing a lot, yet again, just as we feel like we may be 12 to 18 months away from another prolonged period of stability.