The Championship

[The Great Mass Debater]

Just casting my eye over the league table, strikes me just how many of the clubs (especially the bottom 5) have been Premier League teams recently. Shows how the fortunes of clubs at this level can evolve/devolve so quickly. But there are only really a few who havent tasted it for a while. Two most notable examples are the two with arguably the proudest history Leeds and Forest, who havent had a sniff for over a decade. Good competitive league in any year. Quite a contrast to the unbalanced Premiership

 

[Canaryboy]

Yep, there are even several teams in the two leagues below who have been in the Premier League (as in, the league founded in 1992).

Bradford, Oldham, Sheff Utd, Coventry, Portsmouth.

In fact, each of the bottom five in this league have been in the Premier League in recent history - Fulham, Blackpool, Bolton, Birmingham, Wigan.

It is a very strong league, but it also shows how quickly football can change. I think that's what Gazza is trying to say about the Trust, it may seem a little irrelevant to people at the moment, but the trust would soon become relevant again if we were in Blackpool or Fulham's position. 

 

[eatonparkboy]

I believe Forest always punched above their weight and what Clough and company achieved with them in the 70's particularly was unprecendented in football and I cannot see ever being equalled. His record with Derby, a provincial club really, was remarkable also. But when their success diminished, they were retreating back to former status and had very little chance of reclaiming their former position. 

But Leeds is a club that astounds me. I know might isn't always right and size isn't everything but Leeds is the biggest single club city in the country and ought to be able to have and maintain a strong challenging club. Although not a massive club before Revie, once he had established them in Europe they should have been able to maintain that position. The farce of the Ridsdale era has happened to other clubs as well so isn't as factor to me why they aren't near the very top. They are an enigma.

But of course we have seen football at the top level polarised into the North West and London. The Midlands and Yorkshire have declined so much that it will need a foreign potentate's money to give them a chance of reviving their fortunes.

 

[Canaryboy]

The farce of the Ridsdale era has happened to other clubs as well so isn't as factor to me why they aren't near the very top. They are an enigma.

For me, that is the biggest factor. They don't own Elland Road as a result of that era, and they don't own their training ground. They don't really own anything, all that a buyer is purchasing is the name 'Leeds United' and the badge.

Usually when somebody buys a football club they will have accrued debts, but the club wouldn't be technically insolvent. For example, we had £20m in debts a few years ago but we owned Carrow Road, Colney, and a little other land. Comfortably worth more than £20m, so technically solvent (if a bit short on working capital). 

So a purchaser is taking over the debt, but has no asset worth any real money. If I offered to purchase your debts off you right now for £1 you'd probably snap my arm off wouldn't you? 

If I offered to purchase your debts and your mortgage free home for £1, you'd tell me to *bleep* off? Cellino is apparently trying to purchase back Elland Road. Wonder what his intentions are? Will he flog the club, keep the ground, and lease it back to them at a higher rent? 

Because it is GFH capital who are seeking to purchase the ground, they happen to own the club, but the ground still wouldn't be in ownership of the club. Would remain two different assets, each owned by GFH capital?

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

When Leeds went down everybody loved it, the way everyone loves it when someone who is high and mighty falls flat on their face. People behaved like this because they thought it was temporary. When Forest went down, I would never have believed they would never come back up. When Leeds went down it was the smae. Fans thought theyd be able to gloat for a few seasons and then Leeds would be back. I dont think anyone would have thought they wouldnt come back up. I'll come clean, I went to University in Leeds and adopted my new club. I had a season ticket there in the season when Leeds were top at xmas and Ferdinand was the main man. I was there through the Bowyer and Woodgate thing. I was there when Leeds were buying every exciting young talent and were in the Champions League semi final. This corresponded with a massive boom and buzz in the city itself. Everything was buzzing and nobody had a clue what was about to happen. I even had a vote on whether to build a new modern 50k stadium to replace Elland Road - everything seemed so rosy.

I firmly believe the Bowyer and Woodgate thing caused the entire problem. Bowyer played his best football during this period, Woodgate couldnt cope and disappeared. But I think everything collapsed because of O'Leary's book. Woodgate's fall out with Duberry must have caused a massive split, but when O'Leary released his book he betrayed a lot of player confidences. From that point onwards he lost the dressing room. Players that would previously run through walls for him felt betrayed and never played the same again. From then onwards there was a cancer within the club and a domino effect occured. Leeds failed to qualify for the Champions League, something they had based their outrageous borrowing upon. Creditors got twitchy and demanded their money back. Players had to be sold and the debt problems just spiralled out of control, and 15 years later, the club has still never recovered. I firmly believe that if the Bowyer and Woodgate thing hadnt happened, they would have qualified for the CL, the debts wouldnt have been called in and they would have been ok (for that season at least). 

The real problem of course was the irresponsible borrowing, but I think they would have got away with it if that hadnt happened. 

I guess the idea of FFP is that clubs wont be able to over-extend themselves and end up like Leeds, or other clubs like Fiorentina who have imploded