morty
Moderator
Staff member
It was always going to be, despite what Starmer may tell you, there is no way of doing this without America.
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Scoop
Member
Yes there is, Russia can withdraw and stop it's illegal (as defined by international law) invasion of Ukraine.
But Russia won't do that will they? So the responsibility for starting and continuing the war lies at Russias feet.
I'm just addressing your "there's no way" point Morty, I realise that it's more complicated than that now but I'm uncomfortable with how this whole war is turning to a point where Ukraine is now expected to give up land and precious resources whilst Russia seems to be allowed to carry on doing whatever they want and probably won't ever be held to account for starting it.
America meanwhile looks to profiteer out of the situation.
The world's gone to shit thanks to politicians.
morty
Moderator
Staff member
I spent nearly a whole morning a few days ago trying to inform myself better on the history behind all this and the whole thing really isn't as black and white as it first appears. Yes, Putin was wrong to do what he did, but there is a lot more context and nuance to it than that. It is a lot more than "Putin bad, Zelensky good". The world is in a bit of a dangerous place right now, and if Ukraine losing a bit of land tones it down a few notches, then I'm happy with that.
Here are a few Wiki pages, I wouldn't take every thing as absolute gospel, but a lot of it is factual, and verified.
Budapest Memorandum - Wikipedia
Minsk agreements - Wikipedia
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Scoop
Member
Both articles demonstrate Russia breaking the agreements and that's what irks me, Russia keeps breaking the agreements and now expects Ukraine to suffer further losses. That's not just.I spent nearly a whole morning a few days ago trying to inform myself better on the history behind all this and the whole thing really isn't as black and white as it first appears. Yes, Putin was wrong to do what he did, but there is a lot more context and nuance to it than that. It is a lot more than "Putin bad, Zelensky good". The world is in a bit of a dangerous place right now, and if Ukraine losing a bit of land tones it down a few notches, then I'm happy with that.
Here are a few Wiki pages, I wouldn't take every thing as absolute gospel, but a lot of it is factual, and verified.
Budapest Memorandum - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Minsk agreements - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Why should Ukraine lose a bit of ground? They didn't invade Russia.
How much ground will Russia lose then? None? Oh, they'll gain some of Ukraines. What a jip.
You're right, it's not as B&W as that, not to sort out at least but who instigated it, who can end it and who suffers injustice is simple, isn't it?
Something of a mute point though coz ... you know ... politicians ... ughh
morty
Moderator
Staff member
Russias main beef seems to be the semantics between a political and a legal agreement. Also they see some of the agreements as invalid as they made them with the previous Ukraine administration, which I would assume were probably more sympathetic to their cause.
But the whole region has been contested over many years, and certainly way before it was fashionable for people to give a shit about it 3 years ago. For me this is just another thing to polarise people over, Brexit, BLM, Covid, keep people divided and arguing and it distracts them from the shit job their politicians are doing.
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Fen Canary
Active Member
Snd which American campaigns have been successful in the last 70 years? Kosovo maybe, the rest have all been abject failures
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Fen Canary
Active Member
My opinion of Vance is that he’s an idiot, a yanks idea of what a worldly person looks like.
It’s easy for the Americans to criticise, however they have the benefit of holding the worlds reserve currency meaning they can afford to run the type of deficits that would bankrupt most other nations.
If Britain increased its deficit to match that of the yanks and spent the entirety of it on defence it would surpass the US spending on defence by quite some margin (as a % of GDP obviously).
The total European economy is less than that of the States, yet they have given over half of the aid to Ukraine, despite numerous countries battling a costly immigration wave largely caused by American folly in the Middle East.
To sit there and be lectured by a fool like Vance over spending (who then throws a hissy fit when Zelenskyy questions him) without acknowledging the extreme advantages that America has over others simply doesn’t sit right, especially when Britain has built two aircraft carriers we have no use for simply for the Americans to use in the Pacific.
Personally I think Europe should send more on defence, but I hope they call the Americans bluff and stop buying American equipment (with a long term aim of rebuilding domestic defence capabilities) or trading in American dollars where possible.
Apologies for the long reply, I’ve been having a lot of trouble logging on to the site so I’ve tried to cover a few points in one go
It’s easy for the Americans to criticise, however they have the benefit of holding the worlds reserve currency meaning they can afford to run the type of deficits that would bankrupt most other nations.
If Britain increased its deficit to match that of the yanks and spent the entirety of it on defence it would surpass the US spending on defence by quite some margin (as a % of GDP obviously).
The total European economy is less than that of the States, yet they have given over half of the aid to Ukraine, despite numerous countries battling a costly immigration wave largely caused by American folly in the Middle East.
To sit there and be lectured by a fool like Vance over spending (who then throws a hissy fit when Zelenskyy questions him) without acknowledging the extreme advantages that America has over others simply doesn’t sit right, especially when Britain has built two aircraft carriers we have no use for simply for the Americans to use in the Pacific.
Personally I think Europe should send more on defence, but I hope they call the Americans bluff and stop buying American equipment (with a long term aim of rebuilding domestic defence capabilities) or trading in American dollars where possible.
Apologies for the long reply, I’ve been having a lot of trouble logging on to the site so I’ve tried to cover a few points in one go
morty
Moderator
Staff member
Anything I can help with re logging on?
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Fen Canary
Active Member
Not sure mate to be honest, just having trouble loading the pages on my phone over the last few days. Not happening with any other sites so I assume it’s something unique to this one.
As you can probably tell I’m not very techy
morty
Moderator
Staff member
I use my computer (old school) more than anything. I use chrome on my phone and never had any issues. God I hope we don't turn into the pinkun with the technical issues! Delete your temporary files and clear cookies on your phone? I use an app called Ccleaner that does it, and I clear things out every now and again, seems to help matters generally.
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Sonyc
Active Member
There's a decent piece in the iPaper about Vance's psychological make up. It goes into some depth. It might be behind a pay wall however? It's a very long piece but it explains a hell of a lot. Most politicians are trying to work out who they are and shows in their ambitions and quest for status. Some need affirmation all the time, which often involves a deep need to be proved right, to be validated. I mentioned before I felt he has an inferiority complex so I was interested in reading Alison Phillips' article a week later. Trump is essentially another father figure he is trying to impress (and probably will be yet another he finds will let him down). He had quite a difficult upbringing. Trump himself often acts like a child aged between 8 and 12 and there's plenty of material online (from family and others) who provide the detailed analysis of the person we watch (now daily...hourly it seems!).
Not great people to have with such a power one could say because their actions are having such an effect. But the time for a fuller reckoning will probably be in 10 to 20 years time. At some point the consciousness of the American public will change.
If you watch Vance very carefully and closely you can see the kind of person inside. I disagree that he is an idiot and think he is an intelligent man but he's caught up in his need to be validated ... and Trump is that person currently. The article suggests he won't last long in office. I wouldn't know about that (articles have said the same about Musk). Yet, when you hear that Trump originally didn't want a VP perhaps it is not fanciful to believe he won't last long?
Agree with a lot of your other comments. It seems incredible that the US is appearing to be less an ally than the UK thought it was. Same for Europe. All these things will seep into the economics. Decisions will be influenced - as will the threats of tariffs on company decisions (and long term strategy).
morty
Moderator
Staff member
Why didn't Biden get this level of scrutiny?
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Sonyc
Active Member
A lot more scrutiny on Trump than Biden I believe. And I think that's to do with the kind of leaders they are. And the characteristic of dominance. Trump has been in the media for years and is a 'big' character. Biden in terms of his personality was always seen as cooperative and easy going / outward. The criticism of his style was that he would be vulnerable to manipulation by others, by competing pressure groups. He might also be seen as less strong when it came to negotiation. So it's about perceived toughness and resilience. US voters (the more independent minded) may have preferred a strong leader. There were also many column inches about "Sleepy Joe" and his downfall filled both US and UK papers.
In the UK there's been much more coverage and analysis of Blair and Thatcher (and recently Johnson, who wanted a lot of media attention) than other leaders. Churchill has been analysed a lot.
Over here I found Johnson and Truss to be fascinating psychologically and it's the same in the case of Trump in the US. Vance is new to me as a character. I will be watching and listening carefully over the next month or two especially.
morty
Moderator
Staff member
Or maybe there is a huge left wing bias in the media?
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Sonyc
Active Member
Maybe. Not the stuff I read though. I like to see stuff from sides of an issue and just get bored with leftie / rightie talk. If that's your way of looking at it that's for you. I reckon there's bias everywhere. And because it's endemic you take stuff with a pinch of salt. And that's whether it confirms your own bias or riles you. After all, it is a 'viewpoint' and is not something material or real. Why get alarmed or affect your own system in responding to it?
I think the best way is to always suspend your belief in anything and maintain a level of uncertainty to remain open-minded.
If you're someone who sees the left as your enemy (you stated that you like Trump because he annoys lefties) it becomes much more straightforward for you. When people know what they think then people are labelled. So that, in your favour, you know your mind. Whereas I don't straightaway. I like to give things a long reflection before I jump on a side. I can agree with stuff said by Farage and Badenoch for example, because they have a grain of truth in what they're saying. I just don't see things in black and white and that goes for people too. So many times people who I thought I knew have surprised me. I think that's a good thing. Nothing better than finding out you've been wrong about something. One of the joys of life actually because you suddenly come alive in that moment.
Anyway, enough musings and apologies again for a longish post. Every time I do i often get embarrassed and wished I hadn't opened myself up about my thoughts! And I worry many others feel the same.
morty
Moderator
Staff member
Whilst I try not to buy into conspiracy theories, I quite like this one. 30 or 40 years ago the left realised that Britain, for the most part, rejects left wing politics. This is borne out by Blair, who pretended to be right wing to get elected, and how violently the electorate rejected Corbyn.
So what they did was start to infiltrate from within, in the schools and universities. They made it fashionable to be edgy and left wing, and the kids bought into it. Universities especially became an absolute hotbed of left wing politics. Fast forward some years and those kids are all grown up now and are university lecturers themselves, or working in the media. Especially the BBC and Channel 4...
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Sonyc
Active Member
Labour have had to pretend to be centre / right to get elected. That should tell you a lot. Ash Sarkar (a self confessed communist famously) has recently said that Starmer has just been filled with the aspirations and ideas of others and has little strong ideology.
I studied politics at university and I had two very Marxist lecturers but also two other right wing thinkers. My experience of the system is varied therefore. But I'm old now.
I think it's probably fair to say that the media are left of centre. But if I listen to Today on R4 it feels quite the opposite. To the point where I stopped listening because I felt it actually wasn't balanced! And I've not returned. I do read Unherd articles. They give me a different way of seeing things. I used to like posters in the Pinkun who did the same. Sometimes it feels good to be validated in a view but at the end of the day who cares if one is right or not? I mean 'really' at the end of the day.
We would (almost all of us) fight in a war to protect our values and our country (a feeling I was aware of listening to the Commons debate about defence last week) if it came to it. The point I'm making is that we are more alike than we often care to believe. But...even on that point I'm also aware some sections of society don't believe in UK mores and values. They're allowed to think what they want (freedom of speech) but it goes two ways. That doesn't make me racist but does make me think that folk should either integrate fully if living here or should probably go and live somewhere else that does meet their own values, religion and culture. Otherwise, what chance is there to be part of a society where everyone can coexist peacefully?
I was reading about the Danish government (progressive) and it's view and policy on immigration. I found myself agreeing with it fully. They are tough and for good reason. They want even a neighbourhood to be successful (Fen Canary would also approve, as I know his view on unfettered immigration). Citizens there trust their government as a result. We've lost that trust in ours. And that trust gets filled sometimes with conspiracy theories Morty. Just an example above of me being to the left of centre but not on some issues...I'm the same about conservation, town planning, the countryside. And other stuff. Many issues though are just not straightforward are they? There was a thread years ago about where you were on the political spectrum. I was very liberal then (I was probably trying to tell myself I was very fair minded and generous) but a recent completion of the questionnaire showed me I'd moved much more to the centre. Our views are dynamic, like our relationships. Nothing is set in stone. And shockingly, in a short moment in time we're dead and most likely forgotten! We may as well try and be nice to each other while we have the chance
morty
Moderator
Staff member
I think, firstly, that any extremes are a bad thing. Although I hate the hyperbole of using "Far" I'll use it for illustrative purposes, the far left are every bit as dangerous as the far right, political opinion isn't linear, it is a circle, go far enough left or right, and the two basically meet.
I also think that the centre point has fundamentally shifted too, I have been labelled as far right (amongst other things lol) but my opinions are basically what was considered much closer to the centre 20 years ago.
Work hard, reap the rewards and pay as little tax as possible, look after your fellow countrymen, save for your future, look after your family, pay your own way. Stand up for what is right, live your life by a good moral code. I fully agree with your integration point, but left wing media brainwashing made it "racist" for saying so, and look at the shit hole large parts of Britain has become.
I also think that the centre point has fundamentally shifted too, I have been labelled as far right (amongst other things lol) but my opinions are basically what was considered much closer to the centre 20 years ago.
Work hard, reap the rewards and pay as little tax as possible, look after your fellow countrymen, save for your future, look after your family, pay your own way. Stand up for what is right, live your life by a good moral code. I fully agree with your integration point, but left wing media brainwashing made it "racist" for saying so, and look at the shit hole large parts of Britain has become.
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gerryinromania
Well-Known Member
Shame that many, many others, are so self centred and don't or can't believe in those standard principals of life that you set out there Morty.
Good to read this discussion
Good to read this discussion
Fenway Frank
Well-Known Member
Standard principles like parents showing their kids how to clean their teeth, the fact that teachers are having to do it drives me nuts !