This is as bad as Houghton's time..........so, tell me why it's not?

Dubai Mark

Dubai Mark

Active Member
That's how I'm feeling, I really believe this is as bad, if not worse than when we went down the last time, and for me, this squad is stronger and should be good enough! .  

Tell me I'm wrong....go on...tell me  -_-
 
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Canaryboy

Canaryboy

Well-Known Member
Yes, this season is as bad as the Hughton relegation season.

But the failure in managerial terms is not, in my opinion, as bad. 

Hughton had three transfer windows, including our biggest ever summer budget, and had taken over a team which had finished 12th in the Premier League. 

Alex Neil took over a team which everybody kept saying was Premier League quality when clearly it wasn't (how could it have been, it was a relegated team who then lost Fer, Snodgrass and Pilkington).

Hughton managed to take us backwards, Alex Neil has merely failed to take us forwards. That's the difference. 
 
L

Lavanche

New Member
Well I personaly think Hughton was ok manager and most of blame is unfair for him. His squad did fail him quite much and even thought he clearly started to lose confidence and didn't have what it take to fix problem points of his playbook, he made our team play modern football and I personaly liked his style even when it didn't bring us results.

That said I think difference is confidence issue. AN seems to have balls to admit when something isn't working and try to fix it and as Canaryboy said this is his first full season for us and summer transfer window was big failure from board which kind a ruined start for this season. Players seem to like him and are willing to play out of place without murmuring and that is always a good sign. Normaly when you put professional play out of his main position he makes it clear that it is managers fault that he is not doing well.

Also have to remember that we have changed our staff now few times in very short period. We need to give managers longer stints or we never find success. I have never been too big fan of Alex, but I think we should give him time. I would have prefered Hughton if the fans would not turned their backs on him.
 
Wiz

Wiz

New Member
That's how I'm feeling, I really believe this is as bad, if not worse than when we went down the last time, and for me, this squad is stronger and should be good enough! .  

Tell me I'm wrong....go on...tell me  -_-
No arguement from me here Mark, sadly, imo, you're 100% spot on my friend.
 
lyb

lyb

Active Member
Points wise it's worse, but in terms of style and creativity we look better in my opinion, and Newcastle and Sunderland are still obliging us in their performances for the moment. I don't think this team is a lost cause, in spite of the horrible run we're on.

We'll probably beat Man City next just to confuse everybody. :)
 
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GJP

Well-Known Member
Struggle to see that we have that much more style or creativity. Think that's clutching at straws to be honest.

January and February 2 years ago under Hughton we got 9 points in total. This time around we've got 4 points.

At the moment AN is doing a much worse job than Hughton.
 
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hogesar

hogesar

Well-Known Member
We most certainly create a lot more chances than under Hughton and whilst we're on a terrible run i've yet to hit the lows of that Hughton season - something obviously shared amongst the other supporters at games as there's not been (and was none at Swansea) any clamouring for AN to be sacked aside from a few grumbles on online forums. 

The main difference is generally, despite the terrible run, we try to go out and win the game. I can't imagine the Chelsea second half performance under Hughton, for example.

I'm not entirely sure this squad is good enough, either. With momentum etc anythings possible but when you're stuck in a rut and hardly benefitting from luck on your side, it often take some real individual quality to get things going - more often than not up front. We don't have one of those.
 
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G

GJP

Well-Known Member
We have also got numbers behind the ball in some games and employed tactics Hughton would have been slated for.

I wasn't a lover of Hughton's style but the aim is to stay in the Prem and at the moment AN is not doing as well as Lambert or Hughton.
 
KeiranShikari

KeiranShikari

New Member
Whilst it's pretty grim now it's no way near as depressing as the last Hughton season, for me at least. The fact that we've only won once this year and I'm still enjoying games more often than not is worth something.

Going to need a pretty big shake up of playing staff next season, whichever division we are in. 
 
Canaryboy

Canaryboy

Well-Known Member
Going to need a pretty big shake up of playing staff next season, whichever division we are in. 
I think this is what I need to hear from Alex Neil to be honest. Obviously I can see why he is being pally and over complimentary at times to the squad, this is the hand he has been dealt and the only hope we have is for them to find some belief at a time when they are all down in the dumps. 

But as soon as we're relegated (assuming that we are) I'd quite like him just to come out and say that the squad wasn't Premier League standard and that he's going to wield the axe and have a big shake up. Whilst admitting some of his own failings of course, but I'd instantly gain some respect for him if he told it how it was and deflected some of the blame onto the squad because a lot of them have let him down this season or simply aren't good enough.
 
Dubai Mark

Dubai Mark

Active Member
Great responses and love that we have different views without name calling on here. I though really do believe that this squad is good enough, has the depth, and actually does have players who if played in their correct positions consistently should be capable of keeping us out of the bottom three.I am not saying we are of mid table consistency potential, but good enough not to be where we are right now and having had this ridiculous run of results......like losing at Vanilla, which for me was the icing on the cake (no pun intended) in respect of how poor we seemed to be prepared and motivated. We are in a worse position now than when CH went, and the rewards to stay up are higher..........      
 
morty

morty

Moderator
Staff member
Whilst it's pretty grim now it's no way near as depressing as the last Hughton season, for me at least. The fact that we've only won once this year and I'm still enjoying games more often than not is worth something.

Going to need a pretty big shake up of playing staff next season, whichever division we are in. 
^^^Pretty much this. I miss a few games while I am working away, but what I have seen hasn't been as awful as some of the tripe under Hughton. Despite the result I came away from the Chelsea game the other night entertained, and heartened by what I saw on the pitch.

I was at Swansea and saw the players fight for everything, but recognised it was always going to be one of those niggly, tight games. And I think a lot had to do with losing Brady to injury, switching Russ to LB was never going to be ideal.

I still maintain its in our own hands, and that Newcastle and Sunderland coming to Carrow road will be pivotal. We are one point from safety, its going down to the last day!
 
Wiz

Wiz

New Member
You do realise morty that Newcastle have a game in hand on us and probably a new manager by the time they play us!
 
morty

morty

Moderator
Staff member
You do realise morty that Newcastle have a game in hand on us and probably a new manager by the time they play us!
I believe the game in hand is against Man City.
 
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RhythmicTheory

New Member
I'm not going to keep repeating myself so this the last time ill post it:

1. I believe its the players rather than the manager, although I think he has made some mistakes in recent weeks, but I believe this has been a product of trying to hard to fix the problem and inexperience.  Having said that turning around a team in free fall is no easy task, ask Mourinho or Pardew.   I would still back him to rebuild and come out the stronger for this.

2. The jan rebuilding was too late, Naismith looks hopelessly off the pace, Pinto looks a mistake to me, but that happens, hindsight is a bitch.  Klosse looks good.  Alex has until this last window been working with someone elses squad, that is still largely the case.  We need a completely new spine of the team.

3. Would like us to have stuck with the 3 cb plus wb's  and tried it earlier (which alludes to the mistakes i mentioned in point 1).

I think we will be relegated and I have thought so for some time.  I dont think you can really compare managerial regimes, different league then and now, I dont know if Hughton would have done differently had his signings not been a complete failure.  What I do know of Hughton, when we were on the *famous* 10 game unbeaten run the football was *bleep*, no one cared as we were winning, the football under AN when we have done well has been how I would like us to play.

I dont see any other managerial candidate that we could get, that holds (still) as much promise, or offers any more than we have currently.

I guess ask me again end of next season to see if I think he has learned from his mistakes, given proper support and a full pre season without playoffs I think he will.
 
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I

It's Character Forming

New Member
My take on Hughton was that he was able to setup a team defensively, but had no real idea about the attacking side of the game.

in his first season, he was fortunate to have the 5-0 opening drubbing at Fulham which made everyone (players included) aware that defensively the team wasn't up to scratch, despite having been mid-table the previous season.  So he was able to bring in some upgraded defensive signings and get things organized.  up front, he was lucky to have Grant Holt who was able to score a decent amount and setup chances for others, despite having pretty poor service all season. We've seen this season that even decent strikers like Jerome struggle with similar level of service.  Hughton's first season was dull but effective and a couple of pretty fortunate wins at the end (I was there for both) gave us a 6 point boost and a final position that was pretty flattering (that's the way the Prem works - a couple of wins and it suddenly looks very different).

The following season, Hughton had the challenge of rebuilding the attacking side of the squad after GH left.  And that didn't work out so well.  Also he came under pressure not to be so negative.  Which left us with a style of play that wasn't very effective in attack, with players unsuited to the system Hughton used... but also it wasn't very effective in defence, especially after Christmas when things nosedived.  Nor was it good to watch.  So pretty much the worst of all possible worlds, in football terms.  He would have been saved, at least until the end of the season, if the results had been good enough to keep us up.  But because they weren't, his management style had absolutely no redeeming features and it was just a case of when he would be sacked, not if.

Compare AN - his inexperience in the Prem has been shown up. After a bright start we had the drubbing at Newcastle when he made tactical mistakes.  He reacted by trying to steady the ship defensively, which worked well - although he was let down by some key players making some uncharacteristic errors, such as Tettey at Watford, or Ruddy giving away goals.  In tight games decided by a single goal, a stupid mistake by a normally reliable player which costs a goal, can and did turn wins into draws and draws into defeats.  Then with some changes in defence, things steadied up and we had some wins with clean sheets, winning at Old Trafford, and things were looking bright at Christmas.  But come the new year, it's all gone horribly wrong.  The defence has gone to pieces, we've thrown away winning positions at home, new signings have come in but not shown any improvement, now we're on a massive losing run.  I don't understand why our team which looked comfortably in control of Villa at home, in a few games turned into a team that looked well out of its depth at Villa away.  AN is clearly struggling too, trying different ideas, he's not getting the breaks. We've spent a lot of money on Naismith but I'm not convinced he fits in well into the team, for all his quality as a player. 

So I guess the difference for me is that you can see the manager and the team are trying to find solutions to competing in a Prem league which is tougher than when we were relegated in Hughton's 2nd season, whereas in that year I just felt the manager had no idea what to do, and many of the team were just not bothered enough.

It's demoralising but it's pretty clear the board are sticking with him and, for all his faults, yes it is better than under Hughton.
 
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hogesar

hogesar

Well-Known Member
We have also got numbers behind the ball in some games and employed tactics Hughton would have been slated for.

I wasn't a lover of Hughton's style but the aim is to stay in the Prem and at the moment AN is not doing as well as Lambert or Hughton.
You have to remember Hughton was slated because that was the tactic in every game - even when it was clearly not working for us. And that's the crux, style becomes irrelevant if it's working. Our unbeaten run in his first season was full of getting men behind the ball. Hughton suffered supporter criticism because he chose the least fan-friendly style and then when it didn't work didn't try to change it. Alex Neil has got off lighter because he's entertained fans in enough of the games to get away with putting men behind the ball in certain circumstances.
 
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RhythmicTheory

New Member
He's got off lighter because of last season. 
Well of course that plays a part, he did well last season and earns the right to address things in the new season in my opinion.  However you are massively over simplying the reasons here to suit your argument, i.e you want him out.
 

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