Transfer gossip.

[eatonparkboy]

You're really not a fan of what we are doing here, are you?

We are developing a great deal of promising youngsters, some will fall by the wayside, some will play for Norwich City, and some will be sold on. With a category one academy we are also able to cast our net wider and sign promising youngsters from elsewhere. Bear in mind we are only a few years in with this, it will bear fruit.

Regarding Godfrey, he has made his debut in first team football at 17, albeit it at a lower level, but that alone should tell you he is something special. What if he turns out to be another Rooney, and we are selling him for 20 million in 2 years time?

We're not running this as just a "hand to mouth" thing for future Norwich City players, its about business and profit too.

We have had a youth system at NCFC ever since I have been following them. We had A and B teams. We weren't always in the top division then but we weren't the worst club. And if we had a youngster with promise, he played for the first team and may have got sold on to a bigger or more famous club such as Maurice Norman or he might even stay with the club for virtually all his playing career and maybe even manage it like Dave Stringer.

Normally, most of these young talented players were sold on and of course, supporters demonstrated their anger when some were sold, like Chris Sutton. But for as long as I could remember, we produced good talent and were reasonably admired for it. And it helped finance this club to a great degree. Even recently under Paul Lambert we had Smith, Spillane, Adeyemi and Martin in the team.

The previous manager, and he fell by the wayside, developed some of the current youth at this club. They even went on to win a national trophy beating the 20K a week players of Chelsea including Aker, Swift, Loftus Cheek, Baker etc. And I find it difficult to believe that not one is considered good enough to merit a first team squad place while we retain the likes of Andreu, Lafferty, Whittaker etc.

The Murphys, Toffolo, Loza, Morris are all 21 or close to it. How much longer do they have to learn their trade? Is 25 a cut off time? Yes, mostly, they are getting game time at other clubs but to what end? Do those teams play the same style as us? Is the passing and movement in L2 good enough or are these loanees only getting "experience".

If they aren't good enough at 21 then they aren't good enough. It has taken the poor form of Ruddy for the club to play Rudd and he looks as though he has always played first team football. He is now 24 the same age as Ruddy was when we bought him.

If AN had said we had bought Godfrey because he was close to the first team I would applaud it. But he has said that he will develop in the under 21's. That is a contradiction of why we have sent others out on loan.

I am not unhappy with the club at all. But I do get confused with some of the ways of the inexperienced management team and the board for that matter. I have no axe to grind  but conversely I don't religiously toe the party line and I do think that mistakes are being made.

I have had vigorous discussions with many of you regarding what I want for and from the club. And I don't expect wholesale agreement with some of my views, and I'm not the only poster to have different values.

But you say "We are developing a great deal of promising youngsters, some will fall by the wayside, some will play for Norwich City."

I would be prepared to say there is not one of the current crop, Godfrey aside (we bought him). who will be playing in the first team in five years time especially if we are still in the Prem. Not because they haven't the talent, but because we will but from elsewhere. Probably foreigners as well.

 

[morty]

I don't know what to tell you fella. Football has changed. And our youth system was decimated under previous managers, its only really in the last 6 or 7 years that we have started to rebuild it.

I guess it depends on what you want, quaint little Norwich City who stick to their small time values, or Norwich City, the hard faced business it needs to be to survive in the Premiership.

The Academy is primarily a development medium, and if we manage to produce someone good enough for the first team, then bonus. But the fact remains we are playing in one of the toughest leagues in the world, we're not going to have a production line that puts player after player in the first team.

Another bonus of us having a Category one Academy is that we can stroll into Suffolk and half inch the promising youth that Ipswich seemed to have a habit of finding in recent years. I actually read a thread on one of their forums where they were disgusted that Norwich City were running development roadshows on their own doorstep.

 

[Number 9]

Business and profit is an important issue, we see clubs stockpiling players to make money on loan fees etc and also to prevent others getting them, think Tesco et all buying up land across the country.

 

[Canaryboy]

Should really move for his own sake, like McGeehan.

I think the choice will be taken out of his hands in the summer, he'll be an over aged player, that's what I mean though really. Loza will get a new club in League One or Two, but that will be make or break. When Adrian Coote flopped at Colchester that was him done. 

Carlton Morris has a couple of years before he reaches that point. He must offer something on the pitch other than goals because he's played 21 games for Hamilton this season, just 3 goals.

The next Emile Heskey perhaps? 

 

[Canaryboy]

We have had a youth system at NCFC ever since I have been following them. We had A and B teams. We weren't always in the top division then but we weren't the worst club. And if we had a youngster with promise, he played for the first team and may have got sold on to a bigger or more famous club such as Maurice Norman or he might even stay with the club for virtually all his playing career and maybe even manage it like Dave Stringer.

Its just statistical common sense that when the domestic league had far fewer foreign players it would have more domestic players making the grade. 

The Premier League is the richest and most prestigious domestic league in the world. The league has become globalised if you like, domestic players have to compete with talent from all over the world. 

In 1993 you'd probably find the likes of Jamie O'Hara, Jay Spearing, and Dan Gosling playing in the top tier, yes. 

But would that be a good thing or a bad thing? It means the quality of the game in this country has simply improved massively. 

We could have had a domestic league without the global audience and billions of pounds with a game which didn't progress in this country, so people like Chris Martin would be key Premier League players. Only, we wouldn't  have the likes of Aguero coming over to entertain us, and in fact we'd then probably find it difficult to keep hold of our Harry Kane's and Raheem Sterling's as we'd be exporting top talent to richer leagues instead of importing it from poorer ones.

The game was simply revolutionized here by the Cantona's, Bergkamp's and Zola's, then the Henry's, etc. 

The bar has simply been raised, the domestic talent has to be of a better standard now to make the top division here. I'm not really sure that we need to be too sympathetic to their plight because there is nothing stopping them from going and playing abroad themselves, but for some reason they are adverse to doing that and would rather play in the Championship than go and test themselves in France or Germany etc. 

Korey Smith is a defensive midfielder. He did a good job for us in helping us towards reaching the Premier League. Now that we are in the Premier League we can afford to employ a Tettey.

Korey Smith or Alex Tettey? The latter is simply a better player, case closed. 

 

[Lavanche]

Apologies everyone.The de Maio story is incorrect. I did have some info that a player was at Colney and it turned out to be Haller. A case of the wrong Sebastien! It was passed to me in good faith and I posted it in good faith. Sorry again.

I'm actually very happy you were wrong. Haller would be decent catch even if I still find him unlikely. Sky seems to again fairly sure we sign Naismith.

Also Tim Klose sounds better on the paper than De Maio. 

And in my opinon signing promising youngster for U21 is always good. Without add ons he is almost free with current prices and if he launches any add ons it just means he was succesful. This is how bigger teams work in the youngster market so why wouldn't we 

 

[Canaryboy]

Also, the end of the 'job for life' is not unique to football, the same change has happened across life in general, the average person changes their job every 2 point something years. Just not normal for a person to stay in the same job or even career for life now. 

And when you look at our successful sides of the late 80's and early 90's, most of the players were actually other clubs rejects, so not like we didn't benefit from other teams discarding their youth products. 

I believe that all four of Bowen, Crook, Culverhouse and Polston were picked up from Spurs, where they didn't make the grade. So players not making it at their first clubs is nothing new.

 

[Canaryboy]

I don't know what to tell you fella. Football has changed. And our youth system was decimated under previous managers

Wasn't it the case that we used to have a satellite academy somewhere near Bristol and that many of our players actually came from that academy and didn't move to Norwich until they were 16 and they could sign a YTS and get digs?

Eadie, Bellamy, Shore (one who was apparently super talented), Llewellyn, Cureton, etc actually all came out of that satellite academy rather than from Colney? 

I wonder how significant the decision to close that academy as a cost cutting measure was to our club, considering the players that Southampton have since brought through from their own satellite academy in the area (including Gareth Bale!).

We then had some sort of youth set up near Watford from which we brought through Jason Shackell, Korey Smith etc? Not sure if we still have that? 

If we've relied on satellite academies in the past to bring through many of our best youth players then it does seem to suggest that the issue really is just with a lack of talent in our catchment area?

 

[Boyerboy]

I agree with much that is said here but I think that the commercial issues go even further.  It was the much maligned Hughton who revived the youth structure and got the club investing in it and Colney generally. It is still a relatively new project. 

The difference between now and the days of Jarvis x2, Spillane, Eagle et al is the quality of the kids. They may not be or ever be Premier quality players but many of them of them will carve careers in the lower leagues. More importantly, like Adeyami and Mcgeehan, they will go for good fees. Both of them went for over £500k as I understand it. 

If we bring on young players, equip them for decent careers in the lower leagues and make decent money on sales then that is not failure in my judgement. If for example, we sold Jacob Murphy in the summer to Coventry for £1m I would regard that as a job well done not a failure.

 

[morty]

Wasn't it the case that we used to have a satellite academy somewhere near Bristol and that many of our players actually came from that academy and didn't move to Norwich until they were 16 and they could sign a YTS and get digs?

Eadie, Bellamy, Shore (one who was apparently super talented), Llewellyn, Cureton, etc actually all came out of that satellite academy rather than from Colney? 

I wonder how significant the decision to close that academy as a cost cutting measure was to our club, considering the players that Southampton have since brought through from their own satellite academy in the area (including Gareth Bale!).

We then had some sort of youth set up near Watford from which we brought through Jason Shackell, Korey Smith etc? Not sure if we still have that? 

If we've relied on satellite academies in the past to bring through many of our best youth players then it does seem to suggest that the issue really is just with a lack of talent in our catchment area?

I think the system changed where sides effectively had catchment areas near their club only. Basically a 30 or 40 mile circle (or something like that) and most of ours was in the North sea. As we declined through the late 90's it hardly became worth our while, and I think around the Roeder era the youth setup was virtually non existent. There is probably a lack of talent in our area purely based on population density, Ipswich very much benefited from their catchment area as it effectively stretched down to North London.

The category one academy will bear fruit, and it means sides like Ipswich, who could only manage a category two academy, will be feeding off our scraps.

 

[morty]

I agree with much that is said here but I think that the commercial issues go even further.  It was the much maligned Hughton who revived the youth structure and got the club investing in it and Colney generally. It is still a relatively new project. 

The difference between now and the days of Jarvis x2, Spillane, Eagle et al is the quality of the kids. They may not be or ever be Premier quality players but many of them of them will carve careers in the lower leagues. More importantly, like Adeyami and Mcgeehan, they will go for good fees. Both of them went for over £500k as I understand it. 

If we bring on young players, equip them for decent careers in the lower leagues and make decent money on sales then that is not failure in my judgement. If for example, we sold Jacob Murphy in the summer to Coventry for £1m I would regard that as a job well done not a failure.

And that 1 million finances the Academy structure for another year.

 

[KeiranShikari]

Jacob Murphy has been a good player in League 1 this year and can probably step up. He's quick, can score and is English. Reckon we'd get a lot more than 1 million for him in today's market. 

 

[Boyerboy]

Jacob Murphy has been a good player in League 1 this year and can probably step up. He's quick, can score and is English. Reckon we'd get a lot more than 1 million for him in today's market. 

it was only an illustration.; not a suggestion nor a prediction. I'm not going to argue the point  

 

[Canaryboy]

Just to illustrate how winning an FA Youth Cup doesn't guarantee that the side will produce a number of top pros, here is the FA Youth Cup winning side of Ipswich Town from 2005/2006 (second leg).

1 GKShane Supple2 MFSammy Moore3 DFMichael Synnott4 DFJames Krause5 DFChris Casement6 DFAidan Collins7 MFCathal Lordan8 MFLiam Trotter9 FWDarryl Knights10 MFOwen Garvan11 MFLiam CraigSub FWDanny HaynesSub FWBlair HammondSub FWCharlie SheringhamSub MFEd UpsonSub GKAndy ReynoldsSub DFStuart Ainsley
All aged around 27 or 28 now, so should be in their prime.

Only Liam Trotter (Championship), Sammy Moore (League Two), Owen Garvan (League One), Liam Craig (Scottish Prem), and Ed Upson (League One) are currently playing pro football. Have to say that Danny Haynes made it, even if he's dropped out of pro football now.

But 6 players out of 17 making it in football is probably considered a well above average crop? Wasn't it worked out that just 1% of players who enter the academy systems of clubs will ever make a professional appearance? Something like that. 

The situation will probably be similar with our FA Youth Cup winning team.

1 GKWilliam Britt2 DFCameron Norman3 DFBen Wyatt4 MFCameron McGeehan (c)5 DFKyle Callan-McFadden6 DFHarry Toffolo7 MFJacob Murphy8 MFHarry Randall9 FWCarlton Morris10 MFCameron King 

 75'11 MFJosh MurphySub DFKevin LokkoSub GKTyler ReadingSub MFHarvey HoddSub MFRod Young 

 75'Sub  Reece Brown
In fact several seem to already have dropped off of the face of the earth. McGeehan, Toffolo, Josh Murphy, and Jacob Murphy, and Carlton Morris likely the only ones likely to make it at any domestic pro level? 5 players perhaps? 

Would give us a similar attrition rate as the Ipswich FA Youth Cup winners. 

Just so many kids, so few pro deals on offer. 

 

[eatonparkboy]

Sorry but this is not really relevant to my original questioning of why we have sent so many out on loan to get league experience and yet have brought in, presumably for a fee, a 17 year old from one of the perennial worst league teams in the country and are going to play him in the under 21's?

I don't buy into the need for foreign players being the reason for the demise of home bred players. For every Cantona there is at least one De Waard. I remember Rodney Marsh tipping our demise because we had gone out and brought in some pretty awful foreigners but not concentrated on our youth system that had produced so many good players.

 

[morty]

Sorry but this is not really relevant to my original questioning of why we have sent so many out on loan to get league experience and yet have brought in, presumably for a fee, a 17 year old from one of the perennial worst league teams in the country and are going to play him in the under 21's?

I don't buy into the need for foreign players being the reason for the demise of home bred players. For every Cantona there is at least one De Waard. I remember Rodney Marsh tipping our demise because we had gone out and brought in some pretty awful foreigners but not concentrated on our youth system that had produced so many good players.

I am really not sure why you are not getting what the club is trying to do here. If you like for "Put him in the U21's" read "Put him in the reserves to prove himself before he is considered for the first team".  We wouldn't be spending money on this lad unless he was a prospect. And at 17, if he was good enough to walk straight into a Premiership first team, then a far bigger club than ours would already have picked him up. We will develop him further, and he will either break into the first team, or we will sell him on, at a likely profit.

Well buy it, its happened. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but you're sounding a bit "jumpers for goalposts now"

 

[GJP]

Apologies I haven't read through the last few posts but, in answer to Eaton, surely we are just taking a cheap punt on a youngster who might be good enough for us but if not will hopefully bring in some money from loans/transfer fees?

Basically what Chelsea do.

If the club (McNally) see a chance to make a bit of money on something they'll do it. They push everything that way on and off the pitch.

 

[Canaryboy]

Apologies I haven't read through the last few posts but, in answer to Eaton, surely we are just taking a cheap punt on a youngster who might be good enough for us but if not will hopefully bring in some money from loans/transfer fees?

Basically what Chelsea do.

If the club (McNally) see a chance to make a bit of money on something they'll do it. They push everything that way on and off the pitch.

Wouldn't surprise me if we had a budget for youth transfers these days. 

Not just to build a revenue stream like Spurs or Chelsea, but also because the U16's graduates each year are going to vary in quality.

Perhaps we've just not got any decent centre mids coming through. 

 

[Canaryboy]

Sorry but this is not really relevant to my original questioning of why we have sent so many out on loan to get league experience and yet have brought in, presumably for a fee, a 17 year old from one of the perennial worst league teams in the country and are going to play him in the under 21's?

I really don't understand your point. 

Are you saying that we shouldn't be loaning players out to get experience of senior football, and that they would be better off playing in our under 21 team? 

We've signed Godfrey because somebody at the club sees something in him, in the same way that Liverpool paid £600k for Raheem Sterling because somebody at that club saw something in him.

We're speculating on him fulfilling the potential that somebody or multiple people believes he has, with the benefit of far greater facilities and coaches. 

Most youth team coaches would be excited by an 18 year old (18 yesterday) brick shithouse with a good 2 or 3 years worth of growing left to do, especially one who as a centre mid will be able to play a bit. Could potentially be converted into a ball playing centre back.

 

[Canaryboy]

I don't buy into the need for foreign players being the reason for the demise of home bred players.

Has there been a demise of home bred players? 

Less of them have jobs but when I first started watching football in 1992 our national team was giving caps to Carlton Palmer and we then failed to qualify for the 1994 World Cup. 

And does it really matter if a Portuguese right back is keeping our English right back out of the team and relegating our Scottish right back to the Championship?  

What matters to me is that the Portuguese player is in the team on merit and respects the shirt. 

There are ultimately only a maximum of 500 eligible professional senior players in the Premier League (over 21) at any one time. That's 20 clubs x 25 players they are allowed to register. 

The Premier League is arguably the most desirable league in the world to play in, due to the exposure and salary levels.

There are only around 4000 professional footballers in the whole of the UK at any one time, and the average footballer probably lasts say 12 years in the game? So 333 a year retire or drop out of the pro ranks? 

Considering there are probably around 2300 sixteen year olds every single year graduating from the under 16 squads of the UK and Scotland's professional teams, plus a bunch more from Ireland who can come over at 16 and try and get a club, it is a huge achievement for a player to make it at any level of the professional game in this country. Its simply a massive achievement for George Francomb to be playing regularly for AFC Wimbledon in League Two for a salary of probably not much more than a high school teacher, considering the multiple savage rounds of cuts he had to negotiate where most of his peers even at the age of 18 would just completely drop off of the radar. 

So to have players (Toffolo and Josh Murphy) getting games in the Championship is a very big deal. If they reach 22 and are still playing in the Championship then this simply means that they are not currently one of the best 500 players aged 21 or over in England. 

Even if we didn't have a single foreign born player in the Engliish league you'd still need to be one of the 500 best to play in the top division, and that would still be a massive achievement, when you've got 2300 kids a year coming through and perhaps 333 players a year retiring. That's 333 openings a year in a scenario where there are no foreign imports. 

So even with no player imports whatsoever you'd still see 2067 of those 2300 kids each year simply not make it as a pro.

English players simply need to be more open to going overseas if they want more opportunities.