Twenty's Plenty October 3rd

[Beauseant]

In case anyone isn't aware October 3rd will be the day of national protest against away ticket prices that was announced by the FSF two months ago. This is being organised at the Norwich City end by the Barclay End Projekt and will be supported by most local supporters groups.

This is a really knotty issue and will inevitably create a lot of debate. While I think that most fans accept that rising ticket prices pricing fans out of watching games live is a bad thing on many levels, how to approach the problem is something on which there is considerably less consensus. While away fans have the added costs of travel it seems invidious to reduce prices for them without a commensurate reduction for home fans. Do that and you are making significant inroads into a club's income; it's complicated.

Clearly any change has to be universal and next Saturday will in itself change nothing. However, it is an opportunity to let clubs in general know that there is disquiet at the way in which the cost of watching football spirals ever upwards despite the increasing TV income to clubs. As chairman of the Canaries Trust I've had several perfectly amicable discussions with the club and they have some very valid counter arguments, but they also understand why there is concern. I see next Saturday as a chance to move the debate onwards in a civilised manner and hope that those who share my concerns will come along and show support.

 

[Canaryboy]

While away fans have the added costs of travel it seems invidious to reduce prices for them without a commensurate reduction for home fans. 

Clearly any change has to be universal

I think its absolutely fine to charge away fans less, as long as - as you point out - the change is universal. No home fans can really complain about that, because they will also be able to access cheaper away tickets if they wish to follow their team away from home. 

Seems like the only way to achieve affordable away tickets is for a price cap to be enforced by the FA (or Premier League + Football League).

 

[Beauseant]

I agree Jack. I understand the FSF's thinking but this is a long road and ultimately any change will have to be either imposed by the governing bodies or (less likely) voluntarily agreed by the clubs, but it HAS to apply across the board to have a chance of working. If you want a piece before the Leicester game I'm happy to do one.

 

[Fenway Frank]

So what exactly is happening on Saturday for people to come along and join in ? 

 

[morty]

I think whether or not you agree with this, the important thing is highlighting the issue and giving it airtime. I can understand people who only go to home matches perhaps being left out of the debate, but I think making sure that away fans are charged no more than home fans is a good start. Whether or not we will ever see prices as low as twenty quid is debatable.

Didn't the FA set aside money last season so clubs could discount some away trips? 

 

[Beauseant]

Not sure yet Frank. As I said, the Barclay End Projekt are taking the lead and liaising with Leicester fans groups, but as soon as I have details I'll post them. My expectation is a peaceful protest somewhere near the ground with a  distribution of information.

 

[Canaryboy]

I predict a riot 

 

[Beauseant]

I think whether or not you agree with this, the important thing is highlighting the issue and giving it airtime. I can understand people who only go to home matches perhaps being left out of the debate, but I think making sure that away fans are charged no more than home fans is a good start. Whether or not we will ever see prices as low as twenty quid is debatable.

Didn't the FA set aside money last season so clubs could discount some away trips? 

Yes, they did, but my understanding is that it isn't the case this year. I agree that £20 is probably unrealistic, but something has to be done before even more fans are priced out of the game.

 

[morty]

Yes, they did, but my understanding is that it isn't the case this year. I agree that £20 is probably unrealistic, but something has to be done before even more fans are priced out of the game.

I wonder why, given the ever increasing amounts of dosh trousered by the FA from Sky, they chose not to repeat it this season? I thought that was the first step in the right direction.

End of the day though, the fans mean nothing to most clubs, the sums through the turnstiles are dwarfed by what Sky gives them.

 

[Dubai Mark]

I genuinely dont hold out much hope for this one, demonstrations like this rarely actually work, and in this instance everyone is aware of the issue surely.   Dialogue with the clubs and EPL is  the way forward or/and  a huge coordinated effort at an agreed time (20 minutes?)during all matches for something to happen (maybe slow hand clap, waving of twenty pound notes or something) big impact rather than a gathering, best of luck. 

 

[morty]

I genuinely dont hold out much hope for this one, demonstrations like this rarely actually work, and in this instance everyone is aware of the issue surely.   Dialogue with the clubs and EPL is  the way forward or/and  a huge coordinated effort at an agreed time (20 minutes?)during all matches for something to happen (maybe slow hand clap, waving of twenty pound notes or something) big impact rather than a gathering, best of luck. 

Thats actually a pretty good idea.

 

[Dubai Mark]

Just think you have to go big these days and with tv at every game this would be very powerful. 

 

[morty]

Just think you have to go big these days and with tv at every game this would be very powerful. 

I agree. I was at a game at Blackpool and at a certain time, a huge proportion of the crowd just got up and walked out, in a coordinated protest. Ultimately it has made no difference, but it certainly made a point!

 

[Beauseant]

I agree that it's a good idea. I also agree, as I've said earlier in the thread, that the protest won't change anything, but it will have the benefit of showing how much (or little) popular support there is for a campaign to reduce prices. I think its a reasonable way to test the water as to how viable it is to move ahead with this issue.

 

[Canaryboy]

Even a price cap isn't a perfect system, it won't bring equality, some fans are just more fortunate than others geographically. Norwich, Swansea and Sunderland fans get a worse deal than Man City, Tottenham, and Sheffield Wednesday fans for example (the ones who live local to their team that is). 

The argument for cheap away tickets seems to be that an away trip is an expensive day out when you factor in travel costs. But should a Man City fan be paying just £20 for an away ticket at Old Trafford, and should a Sunderland fan be paying £20 for a trip to Newcastle. 

Those games don't present as strong an argument as giving a Sunderland fan a £20 ticket for an away game at Swansea. 

If you were a Sheffield Wednesday fan living in Sheffield you'd have 9 or 10 away games within about an hour and a halfs drive this season, plus several more which can be reached via a very cheap advanced train ticket. 

If you were a Cardiff fan living in Cardiff you probably have one fixture which fits that description.

And if the issue is the cost of being an away fan, then you could theoretically make a case for some sort of subsidised non-profit transport system, like grants for non-profit coach travel, or the return of the 'football special' trains. 

 

[Beauseant]

All excellent points. As I said, it's complicated!

 

[Canaryboy]

I think its one of those things which we all agree on in principle, but very difficult to solve in practice. 

Personally I'd be much more support a cap on all ticket prices, but then you'll get other arguments again, like one club arguing they pay more for their stadium mortgage than West Ham pay in rent, or Arsenal pointing out that their stewards earn more per hour than stewards in Liverpool or something.

A proportion of means tested 'affordable casual tickets' for people on DLA and other benefits would be something that I'd definitely like to see, to ensure that football is affordable for all, but society seems to have knives out for the poor at the moment so not sure there would be enough of an appetite for something that compassionate. Unfortunately. 

 

[morty]

I think its one of those things which we all agree on in principle, but very difficult to solve in practice. 

Personally I'd be much more support a cap on all ticket prices, but then you'll get other arguments again, like one club arguing they pay more for their stadium mortgage than West Ham pay in rent, or Arsenal pointing out that their stewards earn more per hour than stewards in Liverpool or something.

A proportion of means tested 'affordable casual tickets' for people on DLA and other benefits would be something that I'd definitely like to see, to ensure that football is affordable for all, but society seems to have knives out for the poor at the moment so not sure there would be enough of an appetite for something that compassionate. Unfortunately. 

Ooh sorry, but no. Like it or not we live in a capitalist world. And in my eyes the rule is "If you can't afford it, you can't have it", football is an entertainment medium, the same as the cinema, theatre or Sky tv. I agree that disabled people should be given every help to attend such things as football, and I believe clubs offer discounted tickets. But someone who is unemployed getting money off footy tickets? Nah, not for me.

Benefits should provide essentials such as housing, food and clothing. Not entertainment.

 

[GazzaTCC]

Dialogue with the clubs and EPL is  the way forward 

The only problem with part of this is that the Premier League will always say it's owned by its shareholders, the twenty Premier League clubs.  

 

[Canaryboy]

Ooh sorry, but no. Like it or not we live in a capitalist world. And in my eyes the rule is "If you can't afford it, you can't have it", football is an entertainment medium, the same as the cinema, theatre or Sky tv. I agree that disabled people should be given every help to attend such things as football, and I believe clubs offer discounted tickets. But someone who is unemployed getting money off footy tickets? Nah, not for me.

Benefits should provide essentials such as housing, food and clothing. Not entertainment.

The club did used to run a discount scheme for those on income support. 

I do accept though that the obvious argument against that is that if the taxpayer is paying to keep you, then you shouldn't really have enough spare money for a football ticket, subsidised or not, as that would suggest you are getting more than you need for sustenance and that there may be better ways to spend any surplus (like a training course, or a new suit for job interviews). 

A huge difference between unemployment benefit and disability living allowance though, one implies that there isn't any reason for you not to be working other than that you haven't been able to find a job (or can't be bothered, in some cases), the other implies that medical professionals have determined that your unemployability is entirely or partially not your fault. There are of course people on DLA who really shouldn't be on it, thanks in part to Labour using DLA as a way of getting the unemployment statistics down, but still likely to be a small minority. 

I agree that those who simply choose not to work, or don't put enough effort into becoming employable, shouldn't be made to feel entitled to be gifted a quality of life afforded to those who work hard for their money.

On the other hand, I don't think those who are in some way physically or mentally disadvantaged should effectively be stuck in the house unable to get out for social activity or entertainment, especially as not leaving the house for exercise and being social in many cases simply makes their condition worse, and then makes them more reliant on support. So I'd personally support discounts for those on DLA. 

OAP's get a discount, and I don't begrudge them that, only you could make the argument that this could be means tested, a lot of retired people have high levels of disposable income, only if you did means test it then those who are considered capable of paying full price comfortably would argue that those who do get a discount are being rewarded for not putting enough in their private pension throughout their working life.

The strongest case to be made is still for cheaper ticket prices all round though, I think football has become a very expensive form of entertainment for most people in this country, whether you are working, unemployed, disabled, retired or a student, I've been to games in La Liga and Serie A and tickets are literally half the price or less. Bundesliga even cheaper I believe? 

Its such a difficult subject though, because there is an obvious counter argument for every point, I could argue against myself for hours about this. Because then you get the argument that if professional football is too expensive for you then go and give a fiver to a non-league side, the games still last 90 minutes, and your fiver is going to a worthy community cause. I've actually made this argument to people before who say that they never go to the football because of the ticket prices, there are non-league clubs who would be grateful for even a couple of dozen extra regulars and they'll give you a cup of tea for a quid. 

Then the obvious argument that some clubs, including ours, don't exactly have a surplus of seats to supply, although most clubs outside of the Premier League do have a surplus of seats. We have nothing to gain from selling seats cheaper to those who can't afford to pay full price, because it will lose us money, whilst Sheffield Wednesday and Leeds potentially do? 

Sorry for the long reply, I saw your response when I saw it and have reflected on it since, I wanted to try and compose a response which didn't make me sound like Jeremy Corbyn!