Twenty's Plenty October 3rd

[Canaryboy]

I saw your response when I saw it 

Oh dear, ha. 

 

[Moosheep]

Instead of expecting all clubs to reduce ticket prices for visiting supporters why couldn't a club subsidise the the purchase of away tickets for its own travelling fans? This way there wouldn't need to be a universal scheme agreed amongst all clubs. Our club would be subsidising our supporters. If a club chose not to run such a scheme it would only be their own supporters who are affected. As all away ticket sales go through the supporters home club it would be really easy to implement too.

Moo

 

[morty]

The club did used to run a discount scheme for those on income support. 

I do accept though that the obvious argument against that is that if the taxpayer is paying to keep you, then you shouldn't really have enough spare money for a football ticket, subsidised or not, as that would suggest you are getting more than you need for sustenance and that there may be better ways to spend any surplus (like a training course, or a new suit for job interviews). 

A huge difference between unemployment benefit and disability living allowance though, one implies that there isn't any reason for you not to be working other than that you haven't been able to find a job (or can't be bothered, in some cases), the other implies that medical professionals have determined that your unemployability is entirely or partially not your fault. There are of course people on DLA who really shouldn't be on it, thanks in part to Labour using DLA as a way of getting the unemployment statistics down, but still likely to be a small minority. 

I agree that those who simply choose not to work, or don't put enough effort into becoming employable, shouldn't be made to feel entitled to be gifted a quality of life afforded to those who work hard for their money.

On the other hand, I don't think those who are in some way physically or mentally disadvantaged should effectively be stuck in the house unable to get out for social activity or entertainment, especially as not leaving the house for exercise and being social in many cases simply makes their condition worse, and then makes them more reliant on support. So I'd personally support discounts for those on DLA. 

OAP's get a discount, and I don't begrudge them that, only you could make the argument that this could be means tested, a lot of retired people have high levels of disposable income, only if you did means test it then those who are considered capable of paying full price comfortably would argue that those who do get a discount are being rewarded for not putting enough in their private pension throughout their working life.

The strongest case to be made is still for cheaper ticket prices all round though, I think football has become a very expensive form of entertainment for most people in this country, whether you are working, unemployed, disabled, retired or a student, I've been to games in La Liga and Serie A and tickets are literally half the price or less. Bundesliga even cheaper I believe? 

Its such a difficult subject though, because there is an obvious counter argument for every point, I could argue against myself for hours about this. Because then you get the argument that if professional football is too expensive for you then go and give a fiver to a non-league side, the games still last 90 minutes, and your fiver is going to a worthy community cause. I've actually made this argument to people before who say that they never go to the football because of the ticket prices, there are non-league clubs who would be grateful for even a couple of dozen extra regulars and they'll give you a cup of tea for a quid. 

Then the obvious argument that some clubs, including ours, don't exactly have a surplus of seats to supply, although most clubs outside of the Premier League do have a surplus of seats. We have nothing to gain from selling seats cheaper to those who can't afford to pay full price, because it will lose us money, whilst Sheffield Wednesday and Leeds potentially do? 

Sorry for the long reply, I saw your response when I saw it and have reflected on it since, I wanted to try and compose a response which didn't make me sound like Jeremy Corbyn! 

Firstly, urgh, Corbyn.

But yeah, agree with all of that. Yes the fairest way would be to cut ticket prices across the board. And re the discounted tickets we used to give to doleys, thankfully McNally tightened up on a lot of the concessions we were giving out, we were virtually giving tickets away in some cases.

I still don't remain 100% convinced that a reduction in prices would put more bums on seats. Football, in most cases does not follow financial logic, it isn't anywhere near value for money, but people go because they are fans. It would take a hefty reduction to tempt people in who aren't really fans.

 

[ZLF]

Good luck for the campaigners and a strong turn out. 

Its not one I can support for a couple of main reasons.

Firstly I struggle to grasp the concept that away fans deserve lower prices than home fans, whether its applied across the piece or not.

Likewise its a high demand product for 90 mins of entertainment not incomparable with theatre where the best performers are in town or gigs for bands - you have to pay that staffs wages and its not clubs are making vast profits despite the cash windfalls.    Ticket prices have risen and £20 where demand outstrips supply seems too cheap today - esp if hits the clubs profits and sustainability.      

For me the focus should be on the unacceptably high wages for average players rather than ticket prices

 

[It's Character Forming]

I find this difficult because Prem tickets are broadly equivalent to other top class entertainment.  Fact is in the Prem we have many of the world's top footballers.  A few years back I went to see Bruce Springsteen at the Man City ground, tickets were £60 each compared to £47 I'd paid shortly before to see us play there.  I've just booked tickets to take my family to see "Matilda" (the Musical) in London, the cheapest tickets I could get were £47.  I've just booked tickets to see Thea Gilmore in Sheffield which are £22 each but she's not as big a star so probably equivalent to a lower league football team (although IMO she's more talented that many bigger names but that's just my opinion).

So fact is that any live entertainment is pricey nowadays, I'm not sure why football should be any different.

 

[Canaryboy]

Firstly I struggle to grasp the concept that away fans deserve lower prices than home fans, whether its applied across the piece or not.

I kind of struggle to get my head completely around that too, it is a bit old fashioned isn't it, this is the 21st century where people moved all over the place. I've lived in three cities which aren't my home town and I'm only just in my thirties. 

Pretty much every regular poster on this forum doesn't live in Norwich. 

The argument that away fans spend more travelling to the game assumes that the majority of home team supporters live locally. That probably is still the case for us, but only because we have so many season ticket holders and those who live further afield can't commit to season tickets. For our club you could argue that it is our many exiled fans who are disadvantaged, they probably find it more difficult to get a casual ticket than opposing fans would to get a ticket in an away end, and they are paying a lot of money to travel to Norfolk too (without the advantage of being able to travel on coaches supplied by the away team). 

The argument that I should have got a cheap Leeds ticket last season because some away fans are travelling a long distance is surely invalid because some of the home supporters would be travelling a longer distance to the game than me. 

The only regulation I could see working is one where the away fan is not to be charged any more than the cheapest available casual home ticket. That would end opportunism and exploitative ticket pricing, and the home fans would have no cause for complaint.

Any other system is just highly flawed in my opinion. 

Should Norwich season ticket holders travelling from Great Yarmouth / Lowestoft / Cromer be charged less than season ticket holders living in Eaton?

 

[Beauseant]

I kind of struggle to get my head completely around that too, it is a bit old fashioned isn't it, this is the 21st century where people moved all over the place. I've lived in three cities which aren't my home town and I'm only just in my thirties. 

Pretty much every regular poster on this forum doesn't live in Norwich. 

The argument that away fans spend more travelling to the game assumes that the majority of home team supporters live locally. That probably is still the case for us, but only because we have so many season ticket holders and those who live further afield can't commit to season tickets. For our club you could argue that it is our many exiled fans who are disadvantaged, they probably find it more difficult to get a casual ticket than opposing fans would to get a ticket in an away end, and they are paying a lot of money to travel to Norfolk too (without the advantage of being able to travel on coaches supplied by the away team). 

The argument that I should have got a cheap Leeds ticket last season because some away fans are travelling a long distance is surely invalid because some of the home supporters would be travelling a longer distance to the game than me. 

The only regulation I could see working is one where the away fan is not to be charged any more than the cheapest available casual home ticket. That would end opportunism and exploitative ticket pricing, and the home fans would have no cause for complaint.

Any other system is just highly flawed in my opinion. 

Should Norwich season ticket holders travelling from Great Yarmouth / Lowestoft / Cromer be charged less than season ticket holders living in Eaton?

I totally agree with that, and ZLF's earlier point. As I said in the OP, only an across the board reduction will be acceptable to the majority of fans. I know that the FSF have highlighted away tickets as an area where they think that they can get a quick win, given the trend towards discounts that already exists, and believe that this will have a knock on effect on home ticket prices, but I'm not sure they've communicated that terribly well.

 

[ZLF]

I see that some Rod Stewarts tickets are £105.    puts the cost of football tickets into context within capacity supply and demand esp comparing watching 22+ top class performers compared to 1. 

 

[eatonparkboy]

Living in deepest Cornwall I can only irregularly get to away games due to many Saturday commitments. Certainly home games are out of the question, my last being Hughton's first home game.

I was in Windsor for the weekend and as events panned out, I would have been able to go to Upton Park. So we phoned for tickets and were quoted £90!! I thanked them for their assistance and hung up.

I really don't know when football will come to its senses. Maybe when enough people say enough. It seems inconceivable that people will be choosy because in many cases, they have bought season tickets. But clubs obviously know the effect of their pricing because they are quite happy to reduce certain cup match entrance prices.

If you are a regular away supporter and travel via a club arrangement, then I cannot see why a club in our position cannot subsidise their own fans on the ticket price. 2000 away supporters subsidise by £10 a ticket minimum doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

I take the point about Rod the Mod but that doesn't make it any more palatable. You can ignore going to music concerts because you can purchase it via several media. Football can be watched through the internet I know but you can't compare a digital download or CD to watching City via P2P streams.

 

[Beauseant]

That's the point. I read the thread on the Pink'un about this subject and found it to have been totally sidelined by the usual triumvirate who see themselves as better fans than anyone else. It has been shunted into an argument about benefitting away fans rather than home fans when the real issue is rising costs for EVERYONE.  Nothing will change while clubs fill grounds but there has to be a tipping point when more people are priced out than can (or are prepared to ) afford to go.

Rather than carp about minutiae I think its important that fans get the message across that watching prices rise continuously while  Premier League players and their agents soak up even more TV money isn't particularly enjoyable. Saturday will, in itself, change nothing, but if nothing happens to highlight fan disquiet we will just have more of the same.

 

[Canaryboy]

West Ham's cheapest season ticket this season is £620.

Next season they will be offering season tickets from £289.

Under 16's will pay £99, just over a fiver a match.

The cheapest season tickets this season are Man City at £299.

If you ever needed any evidence that the way to achieve cheaper ticket prices is to massively increase supply of seats, then those two clubs are evidence of that. 

If you want cheaper seats at Carrow Road then we're only going to see that happen when we've more than we can sell at the current price. 

Then you have another conundrum though, because both of those stadiums were effectively subsidised by the taxpayer, and if we extended Carrow Road or built a new stadium we'd have a big mortgage to pay. 

Maintain high ticket prices to pay our own way Vs taking taxpayer money to drive down ticket prices? The general public are paying either way, only in the former scenario its only those who choose to go to the football who pay, and in the latter there are plenty of people who object to their tax money being spend on big stadium developments which then get handed over cheap to private companies. They have a point, don't they? 

That's another aspect which makes this much less than straight forward, clubs often borrow against projected ticket revenues (use those as collateral), particularly when building stadiums. So that would seriously influence just how low ticket prices could go, they'd need an increase in attendance sufficient to make up the lost revenue, I'm sure there is a 'sweet spot' but how many more people would actually go to Carrow Road if the tickets were even just £22?

What are they at current, £45 for a casual ticket? If we halved ticket prices we'd need to double attendance to achieve the same level of revenue, I can't see that happening myself, so why would it make sense to spend (say) £60m on a new stadium, where's that £60m coming from unless ticket prices remain largely the same?

Coventry experienced issues because they entered into a lease agreement with rent calculated against their gate receipts at the time, and then saw attendances fall, leaving them in serious trouble. 

The choice at Norwich appears to be between insufficient supply but a mortgage free and rent free stadium, or borrowing money to increase supply which would have a direct impact on our playing budget for a while and leave us either with a large amount of external debt or a big rent bill.... 

Sacrificing a mortgage free stadium, borrowing lots of money, then having to reduce prices to fill seats... you can see why this doesn't appear too attractive as a proposition to anybody business minded in the short term at least, especially as we don't have a god given right to be in this division and could be stuck with a half empty stadium in the second tier.

Going to Hillsborough and Elland Road last season, both half empty, made me wonder whether they'd actually ever considered a ground reduction. I'd hate that to happen at Carrow Road. 

I know that this issue is a football wide one and I'm zeroing in on one club, but I think given the choice between 15000 empty seats and high ticket prices, I'd probably lean towards the latter.

 

[Beauseant]

That's the point. I read the thread on the Pink'un about this subject and found it to have been totally sidelined by the usual triumvirate who see themselves as better fans than anyone else. 

Just to clarify that triumvirate doesn't include Eddie Edwards in case anyone had jumped to that conclusion. I have a huge anount of respect for Eddie, less so for others.

 

[eatonparkboy]

Just to clarify that triumvirate doesn't include Eddie Edwards in case anyone had jumped to that conclusion. I have a huge anount of respect for Eddie, less so for others.

No pun intended?

 

[Beauseant]

No pun intended?

No actually, but it would have been a cracker had I thought of it!

 

[eatonparkboy]

Bayern supporters deliberately entered the stadium 5 minutes late to protest at the price of away tickets. They have paid half the price of their cheapest season ticket for tonights match at Arsenal.

 

[Beauseant]

Bayern supporters deliberately entered the stadium 5 minutes late to protest at the price of away tickets. They have paid half the price of their cheapest season ticket for tonights match at Arsenal.

Yep. Great to see that they stuck to what they said they would do. Sadly much of the response we've had to Twenty's Plenty has been along the lines of it being a rich man's protest (one idiot even berated the FSF for organising a protest for privileged people on the day of the collection for refugees, despite the former being announced two months before the latter) or that you'd pay the same for opera or ballet., as if that's in some way relevant.

 

[eatonparkboy]

Yep. Great to see that they stuck to what they said they would do. Sadly much of the response we've had to Twenty's Plenty has been along the lines of it being a rich man's protest (one idiot even berated the FSF for organising a protest for privileged people on the day of the collection for refugees, despite the former being announced two months before the latter) or that you'd pay the same for opera or ballet., as if that's in some way relevant.

And I dare say the opera and ballet are well overpriced as well. Certainly rock concerts are. There is no justification for high prices other than greed.

 

[Canaryboy]

And I dare say the opera and ballet are well overpriced as well.

Those have always been activities for the wealthy though, football used to be a working class game, now it is increasingly a middle class spectator sport overrun by parasites trying to take a slice of the pie, Nicky Blair the son of those famous property developers for example who chose to become a football agent.