Would you have Ched Evans?

[Moosheep]

Whereas with a convicted peadophile (although there is no crime called 'being a peadophile', which is a mental disorder)

Actually, it is a sexual preference and no more a 'mental disorder' than being gay...but this is definitely getting way off topic.

Probably not the best example, but really the point I was trying to get across is that I don't think people view rape as badly as they should. It really is a terrible crime.

Rape is a terrible crime, but so are many crimes if you are the victim. Imagine how you would feel if your mother was left destitute by a conman? Is rape worse than that, better or the same? Some victims deals with crime better than others. Something you might shrug off as 'one of those things' might be devastating and life changingh to another. The point is that it is all so subjective that it is impossible to make rational and fair decisions regarding punishment when emotions become involved. This is why there are sentencing guidelines, set by disinterested parties outside of the emotions of specific court cases.

All sex offenders will be subject to a risk assessment prior to their release. If they are deemed to be a continued risk to society the authorities can apply for a Sexual Offences Provention Order which can, amongst other things, ban them from specific types or work, going to specific areas or under taking specific activities. This is the right place to stop someone returning to a specific profession and not the media, facebook or twitter!

Moo 

 

[Canaryboy]

It really is a terrible crime.

Some are more terrible and clear cut than others though. But we probably shouldn't take this conversation in that direction.

 

[bigfish]

I haven't seen anybody make comments on those lines. 

Some are saying that they don't find the conviction entirely convincing, and others are saying that he shouldn't lose his right to employment (football player is just a profession, like any other). 

Nobody is saying that "drunk birds in short skirts are just asking for it" or similar. 

Fair point, no one here - which has to be good.

The other point remains football is not a profession like any other, rape is not a crime like any other and without contrition Evans doesn't deserve rehabilitation.

 

[Moosheep]

Moosheep, although I get the sentiment of your question (about if it was my Son) it is very close to sounding like Evans is the victim in all this, despite all the legal processes.

If it was my son, I would want him to get back into the best job he can, to provide a future for himself. In Evans case this is football. if I was a Football manager I wouldn't want to touch him with a  bargepole, because of the potential for backlash (it would be inevitable without a doubt) and anyway,  there are dozens of better (safer bets?) footballers out there than Evans. I feel that may not come into it with the arrogance that football holds, when it comes to day to day living.

Evans, wether you like it or not, is perceived as a role model because of the (footballing) status he achieved, and would you want your Son, to come up with the excuse that 'it was alright when Ched Evans did it', in front of a Court of Law? 

He could get a job in football, coaching etc

Anyway, like I said, what if it was your daughter?

CrabbyC, firstly I am absolutely not wanting to portray Evans as a victim here. My aim is to try and and get people to think of this in a much more objective manner. It is easy to spout off about what should and shouldn't be done when you are remote to a situation and forget that we are talking about real lives, and alienating individuals will, ultimately, do no good for society.

What if it was my daughter? Well no doubt I would be up in arms at the idea of Ched Evans ever playing professional football again....but that wouldn't mean I was right. As I mentioned in my previous post it is not possible to make fair, rational and proportinate decisions when high emotions are involved.

Moo

 

[crabbycanary]

I appreciate what you are saying Moosheep, about the balance of objectivity in all this, and I wasn't saying that you thought Evans was the victim, but there is a large element of not taking into consideration of the girl's side of things right now, and what her family must be thinking/wishing, it's all Evans being the 'wronged' one in all this. The girls thoughts/family's wishes haven't been talked about on here at all. I am trying to be just as objective, trying to see it from her family's POV. Also trying to get people's answers to an emotive question, i.e What if it was a female relative of yours?

If Evans get's a contract and scores a few goals, he will be viewed as some sort of (footballing) hero, and that sort of status, can quite easily envelop any other things that have happened. Is that right? the flip side is, of course, should he always be castigated for what he did? What should get more attention from the World, his rape conviction, or a few goals in a sport?

 

[Salopian]

I doubt whether he is good enough in any case.

As to his rape sentence, there are two things to be said:

1) He has served his sentence, with remission for good behaviour. While we might honestly doubt about employing a paedophile or sexual a deviant to look after our kids, in general when a person has served his punishment, there must be a good reason before we say that he must not continue his trade. Is he a threat to anyone if he resumes his career as a professional footballer?

2) I think that he has expressed sincere regret at what happened, and feels remorse. He certainly continues to protest his innocence, on what ground I do not know. Certainly there was intercourse, and it seems that he, the girl, or both were rather the worse for drink. He is to make a statement soon, so perhaps we shall know more then. If one or both was drunk, it could be difficult to argue that he knowingly forced himself on to a girl who presumably had agreed to go with him to wherever it took place. 

I am revolted by the thought of rape, but it is important that we don't let it at its worst cloud our judgement, so we extend his punishment until we feel satisfied. At the very least we ought to wait until we have heard his statement.

 

[Yellow Fever]

He was found guilty and served his time, and that is the justice system. I don't understand why he should be treated differently to people in other professions who have been convicted and served their sentence. The "role model" argument is dubious at best, I doubt very much that rapes will increase at whatever club he ends up at.

I would not have him here but only because we don't need him here.

Completely agree with all of this.

 

[eatonparkboy]

All I want to add is that crime in general is a divisive and emotional subject so don't think any player should possibly be allowed to create a division among the home support at the club for issues that have nothing to do with football.

 

[Jimmy smith]

Actually, it is a sexual preference and no more a 'mental disorder' than being gay...but this is definitely getting way off topic.

Interesting point I wish to pick you up on! Being gay is not a mental disorder. There is nothing against being gay. You speak like it's an illness or a shortcoming in someones personality. Peing a Paedo is unacceptable.

I will give you that I believe there's a chance that some people have sexual thoughts of sub 16 year olds that they can't help. The ones that are convicted are the ones that act upon them (either by watching child porn or actively being involved in it). The major difference between homosexuality and paedophillia is that the other party "involved" can willingly consent.

That is why paedos should seek mental help whereas gay people should just get on with life and be gay.

 

[eatonparkboy]

I can't believe that homosexuality is still seen as a "threat" unlike paedophilia which by its nature is a serious threat.

 

[Moosheep]

Interesting point I wish to pick you up on! Being gay is not a mental disorder. There is nothing against being gay. You speak like it's an illness or a shortcoming in someones personality. Peing a Paedo is unacceptable.

I will give you that I believe there's a chance that some people have sexual thoughts of sub 16 year olds that they can't help. The ones that are convicted are the ones that act upon them (either by watching child porn or actively being involved in it). The major difference between homosexuality and paedophillia is that the other party "involved" can willingly consent.

That is why paedos should seek mental help whereas gay people should just get on with life and be gay.

You are misunderstand my point. I am in no way saying that being gay is a mental disorder, or that homosexuality is a 'threat'. It is certainly not a shortcoming in someone's personality. What I was trying to get across is that being a paedophile (being sexually ATTRACTED to children) is not a mental disorder, it is a sexuality which is not chosen. Saying 'Being a Paedo is unacceptable' is like saying having green eyes in unacceptable. It is not something that is within anyone's control. A paedophile ACTING on their sexual urges however...now that IS totally unacceptable. 

Although I am happy to continue this discussion I don't think this is the thread, or indeed the forum, for it. If you want me to explain my point further PM me.

Moo

 

[Canaryboy]

Peadophilia is actually considered a psychiatric disorder, and I'd rather consider it to be that than a mere 'sexual preference', and likening it to homosexuality. Particularly as you can, presumably, be either a heterosexual or homosexual nonce. Think this has gone way off topic though, should probably let this thread die until further news (e.g. the Evans retrial, if there is one, or him signing for a club). 

 

[Monty13]

Peadophilia is actually considered a psychiatric disorder, and I'd rather consider it to be that than a mere 'sexual preference', and likening it to homosexuality. Particularly as you can, presumably, be either a heterosexual or homosexual nonce. Think this has gone way off topic though, should probably let this thread die until further news (e.g. the Evans retrial, if there is one, or him signing for a club). 

Not to be too pedantic but it wasn't that long ago that being Homosexual was considered a psychiatric disorder in many of the worlds most civilised countries. 

Can I just disclaim that I am in no way defending paedophiles! Their actions are abhorrent, but I think we are often put off investigating fully the why because of our disgust of the what....

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

I voted no. You could argue he committed a crime and served his sentence and that he's a free man having been adjudged to have repaid his debt to society and should therefore have the right to pursue any career he can. But personally I think the storm it would create would impact negatively on the club. Id probably rather have him at the club than Nick Clegg though... Evans has served more jail time than Oscar Pistorious probably will, just for another angle on things...

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

How do you think society would receive a paedophile who 'came out' and said - I am attracted to children, but it disgusts me, I hate myself and I purposely dont act upon my drives in any way? Doubt it would make much difference.

 

[Monty13]

How do you think society would receive a paedophile who 'came out' and said - I am attracted to children, but it disgusts me, I hate myself and I purposely dont act upon my drives in any way? Doubt it would make much difference.

Indeed...whereas if you have been battling drug addiction, which is almost certainly your fault for taking yourself down that path in the first place, we would generally be sympathetic. 

 

[Lowestoft Canary]

Let me be the first to start the ched chants.

She said no chedyn she said no. She said no chedyn she said no. She said no chedyn she said no. Oooohhh chedyn she said no

 

[Gaffer]

His conviction was bizarre. The supposed victim was sober enough to consent to sex with one guy but too drunk to consent to sex with his friend? But as she was too drunk to remember there's absolutely no evidence to support that. 

There was one case where a judge discharged a jury because of their 'deficit of understanding' and the only explanation I can think of is that this jury suffered a similar deficit. 

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

Let me be the first to start the ched chants.

She said no chedyn she said no. She said no chedyn she said no. She said no chedyn she said no. Oooohhh chedyn she said no

Im sure theres already a song out about this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3twwafch4g

 

[Canaryboy]

He'll probably have to end up moving overseas to play, because I can't see fans in this country passing on the opportunity to wind him up, especially as a prolific striker who is most likely to bang them in. He's going to have to develop a very thick skin very quickly, or play abroad? 

Read an interesting point today. Evans would not actually be permitted to play overseas because, although he is no longer incarcerated, he will have to sign the sex offenders register every week at a UK police station unless he gets his conviction overturned.

Apparently Genk in Belgium and a Spanish club are interested.

Genk is actually the current club of Ilombe Mboyo, the rehabilitated convicted rapist who Norwich were rumoured to have been interested in signing.