Mackay New Wigan boss

[Andy]

It isn't accurate to attribute the two bold type labels to Malky Mackay.  That doesn't get him off the 'racism' charge, and I'm in no way condoning that, but it is a little annoying that the misleading way that the Daily Mail first reported this incident has become the accepted version of events. I can remember saying at the time (on the big thread that we have about Malky Mackay) that if you read the article very carefully a reader was just about able to ascertain which texts came from Malky and which texts came from Moody.  The sexist and homophobic tweets were sent from Moody's phone, not Malky's. Further up the thread I've stated which two texts came from Malky's phone.

I wasn't suggesting that he was guilty of any of the three, although he apologised for the first, I was merely commenting on the incompatibility of the two statements.Wigan seem to have a strange understanding of the term "zero tolerance".

 

[Canaryboy]

I don't think the sport of football is ever going to be a bastion of morality or ethics, and it should surprise nobody that a hard nosed businessman like Dave Whelan has just got an eye for a bargain.

Funny that our society can be so outraged at this, without looking at the bigger picture, which is that Whelan has made his fortune selling clothes manufactured in third world sweatshops. Most of us have probably bought something from his shops. 

I may go and see what the odds are on Karl Oyston offering Ched Evans one of his £90 per week + £5000 per appearance specials.

 

[Gaffer]

I wasn't suggesting that he was guilty of any of the three, although he apologised for the first, I was merely commenting on the incompatibility of the two statements.Wigan seem to have a strange understanding of the term "zero tolerance".

Your understanding of it seems to be that we should live in a totalitarian society where even our private communications are monitored and our lives can be destroyed on the basis of a minor indiscretion. 

The fact that we don't tolerate racism doesn't mean we have to abandon basic principles of justice and turn into a hysterical lynch mob every time someone lets slip a politically incorrect word.

 

[splutcho]

Bigots like to hide behind "political correctness gone mad". Political correctness supposedly going mad doesn't mean it's fine to be a racist. A lot of people on that other site seem to absolutely revel in putting the boot into minorities or those of a different sexuality. You can guarantee they were the sort throwing bananas 30 odd years ago. But, yeah, it's PC gone mad, can't even do that anymore.

 

[Canaryboy]

Bigots like to hide behind "political correctness gone mad". Political correctness supposedly going mad doesn't mean it's fine to be a racist. A lot of people on that other site seem to absolutely revel in putting the boot into minorities or those of a different sexuality. You can guarantee they were the sort throwing bananas 30 odd years ago. But, yeah, it's PC gone mad, can't even do that anymore.

My stance on this issue, that those who do wrong should be reintegrated into society to become productive people again, is actually one which can be considered socially liberal. Just like The Guardian newspaper can be considered socially liberal, and they employ a double murderer as a journalist. In 2010 I voted Liberal Democrats, they could have been considered socially liberal too. In fact the Liberal Democrats have a former radical Jihadist standing for them in the 2015 general elections, he has been given a second chance too. 

The reason that you don't feel Malky deserves a second chance in life is that you don't believe that he is sorry. If everybody thought like that then there would be 9.2 million people in this country rendered unemployable for having a criminal record. I don't want to live in a country where 1 in 6 people become social outcasts because they did something wrong once in their life. Especially as they would then be suckling on the titties of the public purse for sustenance. 

If he isn't allowed to be a football manager, what job should he be allowed to do? 

 

[splutcho]

I'm not saying he can't have his job, I just wouldn't want him here. I don't have to like him. That wasn't the point anyway, it's people making out as though the things he said were nothing and that people are making a mountain out of a molehill. Dave Whelan for example, thinks players that report racism are "a bit out of order"

 

[Canaryboy]

I'm not saying he can't have his job, I just wouldn't want him here. I don't have to like him. That wasn't the point anyway, it's people making out as though the things he said were nothing and that people are making a mountain out of a molehill. Dave Whelan for example, thinks players that report racism are "a bit out of order"

Very true, and I think that people are right to take offense at what Malky said, and that it was quite right that he should have apologised publicly and to the individuals (as he did), and that the FA should consider a formal charge and a suitable punishment. 

I didn't realise that Whelan had said that players who report racism are "a bit out of order", if that is true then perhaps it should be Whelan facing an FA charge?

 

[Andy]

Your understanding of it seems to be that we should live in a totalitarian society where even our private communications are monitored and our lives can be destroyed on the basis of a minor indiscretion.  The fact that we don't tolerate racism doesn't mean we have to abandon basic principles of justice and turn into a hysterical lynch mob every time someone lets slip a politically incorrect word.

Not at all. I'm just asking why Wigan claim to have a zero tolerance policy towards racism if they don't intend to uphold it. They don't have to have such a policy but if they choose to do so they should stick to it.

I think the term "zero tolerance" is pretty clear, so why are they showing a degree of tolerance in Malky's case?

 

[Gaffer]

Not at all. I'm just asking why Wigan claim to have a zero tolerance policy towards racism if they don't intend to uphold it. They don't have to have such a policy but if they choose to do so they should stick to it.

I think the term "zero tolerance" is pretty clear, so why are they showing a degree of tolerance in Malky's case?

So what does 'zero tolerance' mean in your opinion? If, for example, it was proved that a manager once said 'I love this chinky food' when he was a teenager, would that preclude him from any future managerial appointment? I don't think 'zero tolerance' means abandoning common sense and basic principles of justice. 

 

[Dubai Mark]

I continue to be shocked at just how far political correctness has gone in the UK, and really do not see how the comments associated to Malky Mackay mean he is a racist, its crazy the way everything is jumped on and also amazing how many perfect people there now are who jump on these things to the point of distraction.

Just an aside.....Over here in the UAE I have even worked with a group of guys from a Country who refer to themselves using exactly the same slang word as was used in the UK back in the 70's in sit coms and on the streets but is now seen as a racist term. (I just gave an example, when I said I wouldnt....)  

 

[Yellowfuture]

Dubai Mark

"I continue to be shocked at just how far political correctness has gone in the UK, and really do not see how the comments associated to Malky Mackay mean he is a racist, its crazy the way everything is jumped on and also amazing how many perfect people there now are who jump on these things to the point of distraction."

I suspect a "perfect person" will be along to put you straight Mark lol.

What worries me is that there is a sense of oppression which unfortunately seems to prevent a full and proper discussion about these issues, sadly all that does is fuel extremism.

 

[morty]

It's not about censorship, or pretending we live in a cuddly utopia. It's about recognising when things are appropriate, and when they aren't. It's about having the required amount of social skills to function in society.

Sometimes it really is better to keep your views and opinions to yourself.

 

[Canaryboy]

See, I'd fully agree with what you said Morty if Malky's texts were intended to cause offence to any individual, or intended to be seen by anybody other than the recipient. 

If he'd sent those texts to a group of people, one of whom then complained and made them public, or even sent them to the subject of the text (e.g. sent a text to Phil Smith calling him a greedy Jew or whatever it was), then I'd probably be saying that he shouldn't be working in football right now and deserves everything that he gets. In fact, if either of those scenarios had of happened he'd probably have been charged by police. 

But I do find it inappropriate that Tan could get a court warrant relating to a serious allegation of financial irregularity, and subsequently pass on the details of two completely unrelated private text messages to a newspaper for public consumption. I have to wonder why that isn't consider an abuse of process, if that isn't frowned upon then surely that sets a dangerous precedent. There has been no evidence found, to my knowledge, which does implicate Malky in financial wrongdoing.

Surprised this isn't a breach of the terms of the warrant, or even the data protection act. It sets a dangerous precedent. It basically shows newspapers that they have the ability and right to instruct private investigators to obtain warrants against people on the strength of unfounded allegations, and then have access to all of their private communications with a license to publish them? Is that any different to phone hacking? Sounds very similar to phone hacking from where I'm sitting. 

That doesn't excuse the texts, but it does raise the question of whether the public should ever have been privvy to them. I'm not sure that we should have been. 

 

[Andy]

So what does 'zero tolerance' mean in your opinion? If, for example, it was proved that a manager once said 'I love this chinky food' when he was a teenager, would that preclude him from any future managerial appointment? I don't think 'zero tolerance' means abandoning common sense and basic principles of justice.

In my view racism, sexism and homophobia are largely caused by ignorance and fuelled by fear. I don't like the term "zero tolerance" because I prefer to live in a tolerant society where everyone is treated with respect and everyone has the right to rehabilitation. If you read my other postings on racism you will see that I am all in favour of education programmes for those who have expressed racist views. For example I would like the chap convicted of monkey chanting at Molineaux to be offered a way back by the club.

However, I am not a director of the board of Wigan FC which has signed up to the "kick it out" policy of zero tolerance. If I were a member of that board and I found out that a candidate for a job was currently under investigation for racist, sexist & homophobic texts I would be compelled to reject his application. That's zero tolerance.

Dave Whelan has tried to justify his position and has managed to make things worse. In my view it was wrong for Wigan to appoint Malky in direct contravention of their own policy and I suspect that he will be sacked after a couple of weeks of angst Nice one Mr Whelan.

 

[Canaryboy]

In February 2013 Paul Elliott resigned as a member of the FA judicial panel, and from a role at Kick It Out, after he'd sent a text message with a racial slur in it. 

In July 2014 he reapplied for his position on the FA judicial panel, was successfully given his job back, and Kick It Out issued a support in support of his reappointment. 

Perhaps it is hypocritical therefore for Kick it Out to speaking out against Wigan's decision to give Malky an opportunity. The FA and Kick It Out actually set the precedent for a case like this, and in fact in Elliott's case he had sent the slur to the subject and the subject had complained about the content. 

 

[Gaffer]

In my view racism, sexism and homophobia are largely caused by ignorance and fuelled by fear. I don't like the term "zero tolerance" because I prefer to live in a tolerant society where everyone is treated with respect and everyone has the right to rehabilitation. If you read my other postings on racism you will see that I am all in favour of education programmes for those who have expressed racist views. For example I would like the chap convicted of monkey chanting at Molineaux to be offered a way back by the club.

However, I am not a director of the board of Wigan FC which has signed up to the "kick it out" policy of zero tolerance. If I were a member of that board and I found out that a candidate for a job was currently under investigation for racist, sexist & homophobic texts I would be compelled to reject his application. That's zero tolerance.

Dave Whelan has tried to justify his position and has managed to make things worse. In my view it was wrong for Wigan to appoint Malky in direct contravention of their own policy and I suspect that he will be sacked after a couple of weeks of angst Nice one Mr Whelan.

There's a lot of hot air in that response but still no definition of what 'zero tolerance' is. The fact that you don't tolerate something doesn't mean you have to go bat-sh1t crazy over a couple of private text messages.

 

[Andy]

There's a lot of hot air in that response but still no definition of what 'zero tolerance' is. The fact that you don't tolerate something doesn't mean you have to go bat-sh1t crazy over a couple of private text messages.

Zero tolerance is self defining.

Just to quote the FA statement from yesterday

"We wish to make it clear The FA investigation into the conduct of Malky Mackay and Iain Moody remains ongoing and no assurances have been given by The FA as to the outcome of this case.

“In the particular and exceptional circumstances of this case, The FA would like to provide some clarification as to the status of the investigation. The FA did not come into possession of the relevant evidence relating to the messages until mid-October. This came out of many thousands of emails and texts and we are still in the process of obtaining additional information.

“The FA is still investigating whether these messages indicate a culture in which other acts of a discriminatory nature may have taken place.This process inevitably takes time. Both Mr Mackay and Mr Moody are fully co-operating with the ongoing process. We fully appreciate the need to act expeditiously on this matter. However, it remains a complex investigation and The FA will make no further comment at this time.”

The investigation is clearly not just about a "couple of private text messages".

 

[Canaryboy]

The investigation is clearly not just about a "couple of private text messages".

I don't think that is immediately clear actually, the FA have remained silent on the issue. Even if there are other allegations being investigated, I don't think that they should necessarily prejudice his employment prospects, presumption of innocence until proven guilty? 

 

[morty]

Really, all things considered, Wigan have made themselves look a bit daft over this, and should have waited until the investigation was completed.

 

[Gaffer]

Zero tolerance is self defining.

No it isn't. To be at all meaningful you have to state what sanctions are appropriate for what conduct.