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Norwich City vs Nottingham Forest(away) Tuesday 21st November.

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hogesar

hogesar

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What is their injury situation? How many players did they buy in the summer? Did they change their entire coaching staff too?

For the record, they are 3 points ahead of us  ;)

Oh and its November, nowt won then.
No of course nothing's won but to be struggling in 15th place at this point in the season when bang average teams like Ipswich can be 3 points ahead and a game in hand doesn't suggest too much is going in the right direction at the moment.

As for players a quick look suggests they had 6-7 leave and 7-8 come in. 

Although that's not really the point. The point is teams with generally worse squads are performing better - something Farke needs to get to grip with sooner rather than later
 
morty

morty

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No of course nothing's won but to be struggling in 15th place at this point in the season when bang average teams like Ipswich can be 3 points ahead and a game in hand doesn't suggest too much is going in the right direction at the moment.

As for players a quick look suggests they had 6-7 leave and 7-8 come in. 

Although that's not really the point. The point is teams with generally worse squads are performing better - something Farke needs to get to grip with sooner rather than later
I think the caveats I mention in the post above pretty much explain our inconsistencies though. I would like to think the more reasoned fan (and I include you in this bracket) can look at all the factors and understand, and apply a bit of patience. 
 
hogesar

hogesar

Well-Known Member
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, like I said earlier I don't really have much expectation for this season so they've got a bit of a free ride. This is the first time i've been vaguely concerned at the new structure though as when the season started, you give things a chance to bed and can kind of look past the Millwall debacle. Then the unbeaten run obviously showed defensive improvement, which was a sign of things moving in the right direction. But I missed QPR game so we're in November and i've not seen us win at home. Follow that up with 3 defeats and a draw in the last 4 and my only real concern is we've not continued the trend of improving as the season goes on (and Saturday was particularly frustrating as the new players who weren't used to the Tuesday-Saturday nature of the championship had a proper rest this time round).
 
morty

morty

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Staff member
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, like I said earlier I don't really have much expectation for this season so they've got a bit of a free ride. This is the first time i've been vaguely concerned at the new structure though as when the season started, you give things a chance to bed and can kind of look past the Millwall debacle. Then the unbeaten run obviously showed defensive improvement, which was a sign of things moving in the right direction. But I missed QPR game so we're in November and i've not seen us win at home. Follow that up with 3 defeats and a draw in the last 4 and my only real concern is we've not continued the trend of improving as the season goes on (and Saturday was particularly frustrating as the new players who weren't used to the Tuesday-Saturday nature of the championship had a proper rest this time round).
The trouble is that I don't think a lot of fans who mainly go to home games are willing to be so patient. We could see tears before bedtime on Saturday if we don't beat Preston 37-nil.
 
G

GJP

Well-Known Member
That's the problem but that has to be something that Webber (and co) are aware of. If things don't get off to a reasonable start patience will wear thin pretty quick. As I've said earlier in this thread, that's the football world we are in. And it's a result of having a few successful years in recent times. If the club had been rattling around lower end Champ for a few years then maybe people have more time for a change of structure and all that goes with it. But that's not the case.
 
Canaryboy

Canaryboy

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If the club had been rattling around lower end Champ for a few years then maybe people have more time for a change of structure and all that goes with it. But that's not the case.
The difference between this relegation and our last one is that if you go straight down after one season in the Premier League you only get 2 years of parachute payments. 

If you stay up in your first season and then get relegated you get 3 years.

That's why we couldn't do things like offer John Ruddy a new 2 year deal. Perhaps Webber could do a better job of explaining things like that to the fans to make them better understand the gravity of our situation. Its also the reason Aston Villa haven't been forced into a fire sale (well that and their new owner putting in some cash, but partly that). 

I really hope that Naismith finds a new home in the summer because when the penny drops for the fans next season about just how skint we are, if he's stuck hoovering up a quarter of our wage budget or something he's going to become hated. Jarvis may want to consider his position in the summer also, and whether it might be better for him to accept a pay off offer.... going to be a lot of tension towards any high earner perceived to not be pulling their weight if we are struggling. 

Reality is that we're going to be on a level playing field with Ipswich again for the first time in a long time when it comes to wages and transfer fees, and we may actually realise just how clever Mick McCarthy is with transfers. Doesn't get the credit he deserves for operating with no transfer budget for several years, and then pulling Martyn Waghorn out of the hat when he's given a couple of million to spend. 

That's going to be our biggest challenge isn't it? How do you sign a goalscorer at this level without the ability to pay seven figure transfer fees? Going to have to take a punt on somebody down the league system like we did with Holt and hope for the best, probably should have better planned for this and signed Omar Bogle or something in the summer. 
 
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Canaryboy

Canaryboy

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Ipswich have got a debt to service and lower gate receipts, but they aren't going to be stuck with players on Premier League wages. We're going to be in a bit of a mess. 
 
Canaryboy

Canaryboy

Well-Known Member
The difference between this relegation and our last one is that if you go straight down after one season in the Premier League you only get 2 years of parachute payments. 

If you stay up in your first season and then get relegated you get 3 years.
Which makes me even angrier at McNally's big gamble in that last January window actually, when he handed 3.5 year contracts to Naismith and Jarvis and KNEW that if we didn't stay up we wouldn't have the guaranteed cash flow to cover their wages for the final year of that deal. No wonder he resigned. Really taken the shine off of his achievements here for me to be honest. Negligence. That's why I won't turn on Webber for this season like many others are doing, he is bang on when he talks about some of our wasteful spending.

McGovern is another one however, under Alex Neil and Moxey, what the f*ck even was that signing supposed to be. A Ruddy replacement? Is so obvious that Rudd isn't here because we're stuck with him  :rolleyes:
 
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hogesar

hogesar

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Which makes me even angrier at McNally's big gamble in that last January window actually, when he handed 3.5 year contracts to Naismith and Jarvis and KNEW that if we didn't stay up we wouldn't have the guaranteed cash flow to cover their wages for the final year of that deal. No wonder he resigned. Really taken the shine off of his achievements here for me to be honest. Negligence. That's why I won't turn on Webber for this season like many others are doing, he is bang on when he talks about some of our wasteful spending.

McGovern is another one however, under Alex Neil and Moxey, what the f*ck even was that signing supposed to be. A Ruddy replacement? Is so obvious that Rudd isn't here because we're stuck with him  :rolleyes:
That's fair. How much you proportion the blame to McNally is subjective though, Delia and Michael have been in football long enough to know the possible outcomes. In fact, you can probably blame Alex Neil the least - he hardly had the experience to know if these were the right decisions or not with us being his first proper job in management.
 
Canaryboy

Canaryboy

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You can't blame a manager when a club spends more than it can afford, that's the job of men with calculators.

But you can blame them when they sign a player who simply isn't good enough, the man with the calculator has to put a bit of trust in the football men with that. 

So you can blame McNally for sanctioning a 3.5 year deal for Matt Jarvis, but you can't really blame Moxey for how rubbish McGovern proved to be... when Alex Neil had both worked with him before and had time as a Championship manager and a Championship player under his belt. 

Now its all a bit opague isn't it, we don't know which players are here because of Webber and which ones are here because of Farke. Presumably Farke and his team suggested all of the German lads, but the British ones were known to Webber. E.g. Husband is a Webber signing. Difficult now to know who made which call. I'm sure our system is more sensible now, but its not perfect and the manager will always ultimately still be the fall guy. 
 
Canaryboy

Canaryboy

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That's fair. How much you proportion the blame to McNally is subjective though, Delia and Michael have been in football long enough to know the possible outcomes.
But pretty much every purchaser of football clubs knows Sweet FA about football, particularly English football, and has to hire people like McNally or Webber to handle all that stuff for them - Fernandes had all sorts of spivs after a slice of his fortune and it took him a few years to wise up to that. McNally was paid £1m a year basic to run this football club, lost the plot towards the end and that's why the accepted his resignation.

Dishing out a 3.5 year deal to Matt Jarvis because he got an England cap once, or spending £8m on Naismith because he's got a big name and played a bit for Everton is actually precisely the type of deal that Fernandes was getting bent over with for a couple of years when various agents and other vultures like Harry Redknapp wanted a piece. That was supposed to be the point in McNally, paying him money because he knew what he was doing.... took a gamble. Now if he'd used that £10.5m to steal a couple of the best young players from the Championship like he did when he pinched Snodgrass and Howson from Leeds.... we'd undoubtedly be in a much better place. 

Seen somebody suggest that Moxey was a waste of space on purpose to get his pay off the other day, and wouldn't rule that out being about right to be honest. At least Webber seems to have a passion for the game. I'm 8/10 happy with Webber and Stone right now, 6/10 on Farke, and consider it pointless forming an opinion on the owners because changing owners seems like the biggest gamble you can take in football. 

Every business has their price and if somebody really wanted this club enough we'd know about it because the prospective buyer would be leaking information and kicking up a fuss like that Cullum bloke. What have Ipswich really got out of Marcus Evans? He's subsidises them with a few million a year, but only because he made a pigs ear out of trying to buy promotion and he'd lose his asset if he didn't (servicing debt) and he's got his name / company name all over their shirt and ground, probably taking back about half of that money in sponsorship value for his ticket tout business.

I quite like the fact that Delia and Michael are ethical enough people to not stick 'Wonga' on our shirts, or indeed name the stadium after a company which operates sweatshops (Sports Direct?). Half of the wealthy people looking to buy into English football are probably only trying to clean their dodgy money or get it out of Kazahstan or whatever sh*thole their mineral operationsare situated in. 

So my position really is that I hope over the next couple of years under Webber we can find enough gems and minimise the amount of deadwood we pick up with our much reduced budget to come out of a tough patch with a half decent squad, hopefully with a few our current U23 players proving good enough. Its all anybody can realistically hope for. There are going to be a few absolutely w*nk players come and go like there was in that post-Worthington period, but lets hope League 1 isn't our bottom this time. 

I'll turn on Delia when it becomes apparent that she has rejected a seemingly decent offer by a seemingly credible businessman to buy the club and announces her Nephew Tom succession plan, but we'd know about it if there was serious interest.... can't remember a single time when somebody has bought a club and then said in an interview "we tried to buy Norwich", the city just isn't international enough. Perhaps if we had a major airport which did direct flights to Asia we'd be hot property.

Sorry huge ranty tangent aimed not at you, but all of the people who bleat on incessantly about change of ownership on other venues! 
 
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Canaryboy

Canaryboy

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Just to be a bit more PC.... women can of course also use calculators, and buy football clubs. 
 
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