Sorry Alex, enough is enough!

G

GJP

Well-Known Member
I don't really buy that. I'd rather change manager and stay up than get relegated just so we can say we've stuck by AN and can introduce some youth players - who probably aren't up to the mark.

He could well get us promoted again but he'll likely have a very strong squad to do it with (as he did last time). We get back up to the Prem, then what? Do it all again in the hope he gets it right next time? Or the time after?
 
Canaryboy

Canaryboy

Well-Known Member
Considering we've allegedly borrowed from the bank against future TV revenues which we need to be in this division to get, I suspect the manager was expected to deliver survival with the £20m we spent in January. 

We can't celebrate the £9m arrival of a 29 year old one month and say that he'll help keep us in the division, and then decide the next month that we're building a long term dynasty and can afford a yo-yo.

Lets be realistic here, we need to stay in this division, and we've just brought in a couple of players who are likely to be on Premier League money whether we are in this division or not. 

Bamford probably has a buy clause written in to his loan contract, at a level we won't be able to afford if we don't stay up this year, whilst we'll lose Redmond in the summer. 

Mbokani will go home, meaning we'll be left with one striker, and our fortunes will probably depend on whether we can pull another rabbit out of the hat and land a 20 goal Championship striker for £1.5m again in a market where the going rate is £9m to £11m. 

There is absolutely nothing positive about relegation and whether Alex Neil keeps his job or not upon relegation will depend, for me, on whether he loses the dressing room or not. They don't seem to be doing the business for him right now, so what does that say? 
 
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G

GJP

Well-Known Member
whilst we'll lose Redmond in the summer. 
While AN is manager it's hard to see him being here next season whichever league we're in.

If I was Redmond I'd be thinking "Well I can just about stomach being left out and seeing a central midfielder playing on the wing if we were doing well and getting results...but we're not".

And that's for me representative of the bigger picture. AN's tinkering and "tactics" aren't getting results. Why not go back to things that the players are clearly more comfortable with? Sometimes it just feels like he's trying to make a point and failing.
 
R

RhythmicTheory

New Member
I guess thats where you and I fundamentally differ though bud, I think its mainly the players, successive managers have failed with this bunch, whats the common theme here?  Where as I get the feeling you think its mainly down to the manager (although you have alluded to some player fault).

As for Redmond, hes been given ample opportunity on the right and not taken any of them since the start of the season, doesnt really look like hes interested in all honesty, I mean thats why Howson gets constantly played there, lesser of two evils.

Nigel Pearson is the only possible I could think of as someone you could imagine coming in, in our situation, I dont believe he offers any better to Alex (the opposite in fact).  Also statistics do not back up the legendary lift a new manager supposedly gives you, thats a complete myth.  Given those choices I would rather break the cycle of reactionary decisions.  Staying up would obviously be my preferred choice but I dont think it will matter what manager we have with the senior pros currently at the club.

Who knows, with the way this season has gone anything is possible, it would be very norwich to lose to villa then go on a run, we wont though :S
 
G

GJP

Well-Known Member
 I think its mainly the players, successive managers have failed with this bunch,
Only 4 players who started today were in the team when we got relegated last time. And of course by the end of the season Bassong, one of those 4, had already been dropped.
 
R

RhythmicTheory

New Member
Sure but thats only been for the last 3 games, before that its been pretty much the same squad for the last 24 months, bar a couple of addtions.
 
G

GJP

Well-Known Member
I dunno. To me there seems a lack of logic/consistency behind AN's decision making. I think that can be seen in the way some players get dropped very quickly or for very little. While others are almost 100% sure of their place. 

He will have pissed players off, there's no doubt about it. And some of them are probably players who have delivered for him in the past.
 
Canaryboy

Canaryboy

Well-Known Member
The single biggest failure this season was not massively upgrading the back five in the summer. 

I'd honestly have been happy if we signed no midfielders or strikers if we'd successfully managed to do that. Especially if we can count Brady as a left back. 

Ironically this is the one thing that Hughton got majorly right in his time here, managing to upgrade the back 5 in his first summer. It was the other end of the pitch where he got it completely wrong in the second summer.

I honestly don't know who is to blame for this failure, could be a multitude of people, but the right back and centre back needed to come in the summer and get their mistakes out of the way in August.

I can't remember the last time a team made radical changes to their defense in the middle of the season. Rudd, Klose and Pinto all coming into the team and Alex Neil not being able to make his mind up whether Brady or Olsson is his best left back.

We've not had a settled back 5 all season. I know that we couldn't foresee Ruddy having a crisis of confidence, but the majority of fans could see that our defense just wasn't good enough and they are being proven right. 
 
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N

Number 9

Well-Known Member
The single biggest failure this season was not massively upgrading the back five in the summer. 

I'd honestly have been happy if we signed no midfielders or strikers if we'd successfully managed to do that. Especially if we can count Brady as a left back. 

Ironically this is the one thing that Hughton got majorly right in his time here, managing to upgrade the back 5 in his first summer. It was the other end of the pitch where he got it completely wrong in the second summer.

I honestly don't know who is to blame for this failure, could be a multitude of people, but the right back and centre back needed to come in the summer and get their mistakes out of the way in August.

I can't remember the last time a team made radical changes to their defense in the middle of the season. Rudd, Klose and Pinto all coming into the team and Alex Neil not being able to make his mind up whether Brady or Olsson is his best left back.

We've not had a settled back 5 all season. I know that we couldn't foresee Ruddy having a crisis of confidence, but the majority of fans could see that our defense just wasn't good enough and they are being proven right. 
sadly its true, shipping two goals per game did for us last time. Now we're at it again, 25 games 49 goals shipped.

Look how many goals watford have let in & where they sit in the table 23 goals against! We have scored 1 goal more than them too.
 
R

RhythmicTheory

New Member
sadly its true, shipping two goals per game did for us last time. Now we're at it again, 25 games 49 goals shipped.

Look how many goals watford have let in & where they sit in the table 23 goals against! We have scored 1 goal more than them too.
that shows the level of punditry though doesnt it?  Scoring goals, for the majority of the season, has never been our problem, its been keeping them out.  Play offs hindered our recruitment in the summer, but the revelation recently that we didnt have a recruitment team in place, thats pretty unforgiveable.  I like McNally, that seems a very uncharacteristic move for him, would love ot be a fly on the wall of our boardroom at times, someone(s) responsible for some very odd amatuerish decisions at times, which flies in the face of others.
 
ZLF

ZLF

Well-Known Member
The defence is the crux of the problem.   AN has bought two in;  klose does look like he is an upgrade;  however pinto currently only looks like a clone of Olsson,  good going forward fast but simply horrible defending - but is likely to improve given he only has two starts.    

Of the others none are premier standard defenders due to a combination of pace, concentration, resposnsibility, inconsistency (in each game, hence the individual errors) or discipline issues.  

Personally I agree with Neils decisions on Bassong being (significantly) better than Bennett and Brady over Olsson;  my first comment applies,  they are simply the best options.   Olssons lack of positional discipline (basic working back from attacks,  tracking run,  positional sense & attacking when the right back already bombed forward) and such poor quality delivery doesnt compensate for the thrill of his attacking runs - which seems to cloud most pundits - as for bradys lapses we have seen more and just as often from olsson,  but gets less criticism as much of the time he isn't even in the area he should be.

Who we chose at right back is less important, all 4 have issues (Martin solid but the weakest overall,  Whittaker as solid defensively,  best attacking option but the lack of pace to recover position always exploited, Wisdom the best defender but no attacking threat (and wont develop one) and the early Pinto signs are he has the traits as Olsson,  we can only hope that over 5-10 games he improves - the rest have too many appearances and too old to expect improvements now.  

With that (10 players to chose from and just 1 good enough) its easy to understand why the starting players have rotated and why the attacking options have been continually eroded to try and shore up the back - stick with Klose Bassong Brady + rb and thats as good as its going to be. 

Yesterdays front 6 were a nightmare selection - no pace,  limited passing scope,  poor tackling and offering NO midfield protection and no movement,  huge gap between front 2 and mid 4 with neither pace in the 2 nor ability to hold the ball up top allow the ponderous midfield to catch up.  We were never going to create or score - and really didnt look like doing so.  It was the worst type of negative - and chosing a 4411 left us low in midfield numbers and putting wes left isolated hm out of the game - effectively doing gardes job for him;  when he strayed central he showed what we were missing (demanding the ball and effectively using it) - but we all know he is wasted on the left wing. 

My worry at the moment is the move to 4411 based on naismith and mbokani.   It driving and increasing long ball game yet mbokani wins less than 50% of his headers, when he does we rarely pick up the second one and rarely holds the ball up.  Naismith is neither linking with him well nor providing and midfield ballast in the way wes does.  Mbokani is more painfully one footed than wes,  immobile, slow to react and offers limited defending press from top.   His main attribute seems to be to draw a foul.  He seems a modern grant holt without the commitment or goal threat.  He is certainly not worth his reputed £80k pw salary nor one I would be looking to sign come the summer.

However I digress,  I am not sure mbokani is any worse in the prem than Jerome (grabban, hooper, lafferty) or bamford,  so can see him keeping his place with a move back to 4231 or even 4141 as long as we build the attacking outlet around the holy trinity of wes, redmond & naismith.   Wes Redmond Naismith off a striker (bamford for me) or wes howson redmond off Naismith also looks very promising.

This is dependent on AN accepting that he HAS tried all the combinations at the back 4 and whichever we chose will concede;  look to win games again by scoring rather than not conceding.  That epiphany has to happen soon - for the confidence of the teams sake.
 
Keckers

Keckers

New Member
AN is just not up to the job tactically. He has no plan B, and after his comments about the players taking responsibility my reply to him is that he is the one drilling them on tactics throughout the week, so what is happening? 

Firstly, watching Pinto tuck in for every wide attack from Spurs suggests he was following a plan. Every time from where I was sitting. 

Chopping and changing the defence is never good. Why drop Bennett? Best CB this season. Bring back Martin when we all know he is done? Where is Wisdom? Why have hardly any of his transfers proved to be good for us?

why should we stick with him for a legacy? Why should we settle like this? If there is better (and there absolutely must be) why not get it now and stay up? 

Im tired of the small town mentality. Think big with managers as well as players. We've spent loads in this window. You cannot tell me that there aren't managers available who wouldn't jump at the chance to come here with everything we have, so let's go get one and part ways with this guy who was always a cheap option. 
 
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Personal Trainer

Personal Trainer

New Member
Defensive problems seem to have always been with us, luckily in 93 we scored goals

Norwich City F.C.
Premier League standings
 
#
Team
GP
W
D
L
GF
GA
GD
PTS
 
1
https://www.google.co.uk/search?esp...&ved=0ahUKEwiAg8TKou3KAhVMNxQKHfPIASAQMQgcMAA
Man United
42
24
12
6
67
31
36
84
 
2
https://www.google.co.uk/search?esp...&ved=0ahUKEwiAg8TKou3KAhVMNxQKHfPIASAQMQgdMAA
Aston Villa
42
21
11
10
57
40
17
74
 
3
https://www.google.co.uk/search?esp...&ved=0ahUKEwiAg8TKou3KAhVMNxQKHfPIASAQMQgeMAA
Norwich City
42
21
9
12
61
65
-4
72
 
4
https://www.google.co.uk/search?esp...&ved=0ahUKEwiAg8TKou3KAhVMNxQKHfPIASAQMQgfMAA
Blackburn
42
20
11
11
68
46
22
71
 
5
https://www.google.co.uk/search?esp...&ved=0ahUKEwiAg8TKou3KAhVMNxQKHfPIASAQMQggMAA
QPR
42
17
12
13
63
55
8
63
 
6

Liverpool
42
16
11
15
62
55
7
59
 
7

Sheff Wed
42
15
14
13
55
51
4
59
 
8

Tottenham
42
16
11
15
60
66
-6
59
 
9

Man City
42
15
12
15
56
51
5
57
 
10

Arsenal
42
15
11
16
40
38
2
56
 
11

Chelsea
42
14
14
14
51
54
-3
56
 
12

AFC Wimbledon
42
14
12
16
56
55
1
54
 
13

Everton
42
15
8
19
53
55
-2
53
 
14

Sheff Utd
42
14
10
18
54
53
1
52
 
15

Coventry
42
13
13
16
52
57
-5
52
 
16

Ipswich Town
42
12
16
14
50
55
-5
52
 
17

Leeds United
42
12
15
15
57
62
-5
51
 
18

Southampton
42
13
11
18
54
61
-7
50
 
19

Oldham
42
13
10
19
63
74
-11
49
 
20

Crystal Palace
42
11
16
15
48
61
-13
49
 
21

Middlesbrough
42
11
11
20
54
75
-21
44
 
22

Nottm Forest
42
10
10
22
41
62
-21
40
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Canaryboy

Canaryboy

Well-Known Member
Amazing that 50% of teams in that league table are outside of the Premier League, including 3 below the Championship. Shows how football evolves and how we could be much worse off than to be involved in a top division relegation battle.
 
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Wiz

Wiz

New Member
I think that's it now, rumours circulating of a fed up Naismith being dropped are the latest 'bad news' to engulf our club.

I can see no light ahead of a very dark long tunnel.
 
splutcho

splutcho

Moderator
Naismith has a knock. Please stop making things up/fueling things that are obviously made up.
 
KeiranShikari

KeiranShikari

New Member
I really don't think you have to worry about people listening to wiz.
 
Dubai Mark

Dubai Mark

Active Member
Surely on this board everyone is entitled to an opinion, and I fully understand the frustration. I mentioned how I feel on another subject, and that is, I genuinely believe that the players are good enough,  but the management is falling short the majority of the time. That said,  I also believe that its now passed the point of no return,  and should we go down that same management team will get us straight back up. 
 
Canaryboy

Canaryboy

Well-Known Member
I just think appointing a short term manager hoping for a magic bullet is pointless and won't work, and when it does work the person ends up getting the job permanently and quickly screws things up when handed a big pot of money to spend in the summer. E.g. Di Canio. 

What quality proven manager is out there who would accept a short term job at a team looking like dead certs for relegation?

I'd much rather we stuck with Alex Neil until the summer, and then review his position in the summer if we go down. More a fan of long term thinking than short term thinking personally, and I can count on one hand with a couple of spare digits how many managers (realistic ones) I'd actually be interested in seeing us ditch Alex Neil for in the summer (if we go down)...

Mick McCarthy, Nigel Pearson, and Steve Bruce if he fails to take Hull up, pretty much the only three I can think of right now (you may turn your nose up at McCarthy, but he's consistently shown that he can polish a turd). 
 
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