The management merry-go-round: Can't we buck the trend?

[lyb]

For me, what's more depressing than the recent results, is that the histrionics are already starting: "We need a new manager", Ruddy getting slagged off for a rare spell of poor form in spite of him having stuck with us when he could have been off to Chelsea.

And what about the new manager thing? Do people really believe changing managers every ten minutes gives all the answers? Is it reasonable that Brendan Rodgers, a Swansea hero, the man who took Liverpool back to the Champions League, is now the favourite to be sacked in the Premier League. Is it right that Paul Lambert AKA the Messiah among many Norwich fans, is 'useless' according to AVFC fans having been winless since August after getting off to a flying start (I can think of a certain manager closer to home who can probably sympathise with that)?

So many fans look at other clubs with bemusement at their managerial sackings, yet can't seem to apply the rationale to their own clubs. Am I the only person out there who thinks that maybe it's about time people started looking a little further than the last recent string of results and casting absolute judgements on the managers as a result, only to swing round completely upon the next string of results?

Obviously Norwich is doing things wrong at the moment, but equally it was only 10 games ago that they were doing it right. Is it that unreasonable to work on the premise that they can turn it around without calling in the HR consultants?

 

[Canaryboy]

Sorry but I just don't think Adams is cut out for management and therefore see no point in persisting with him.

There are examples of clubs sticking by their managers and being repaid for their loyalty, West Ham with Allardyce is an example.

But Allardyce had a great track record and his problems were obvious for all to see, he made one big mistake spending his entire transfer budget on Andy Carroll, and when Carroll got injured he didn't have the target man necessary to play his famous brand of football or to get the best out of Kevin Nolan (who for years was smashing them in with Kevin Davies up top). 

Adams for me has made many more grave errors of judgement which extend way past one mistake in the transfer market and a subsequent piece of bad luck. 

Sacking him now is the only thing which will save him from going down as a Peter Grant or a Bryan Gunn, and I like the bloke enough not to wish him that fate. We'd be doing him a favour by sacking him, and we should do it now whilst on good enough terms, so that he can go and do a good job in our youth system rather than being left without employment. 

 

[Yellow Fever]

I'm starting to see a parallel between clubs and many of their fans and wives with an abusive husband. All is fine while the wife is doing the cooking, laying it on a plate and so forth, (winning games), but something happens not to the husband's liking and the wife gets beaten to a pulp. The wife is placating (the club says the fans have a right to be angry) and the cycle continues. In the meantime the wife's self-confidence diminishes and she shrinks into herself. 

For me, what's more depressing than the recent results, is that the histrionics are already starting: "We need a new manager", Ruddy getting slagged off for a rare spell of poor form in spite of him having stuck with us when he could have been off to Chelsea. 

And what about the new manager thing? Do people really believe changing managers every ten minutes gives all the answers? Is it reasonable that Brendan Rodgers, a Swansea hero, the man who took Liverpool back to the Champions League, is now the favourite to be sacked in the Premier League. Is it right that Paul Lambert AKA the Messiah among many Norwich fans, is 'useless' according to AVFC fans having been winless since August after getting off to a flying start (I can think of a certain manager closer to home who can probably sympathise with that)? 

So many fans look at other clubs with bemusement at their managerial sackings, yet can't seem to apply the rationale to their own clubs. Am I the only person out there who thinks that maybe it's about time people started looking a little further than the last recent string of results and casting absolute judgements on the managers as a result, only to swing round completely upon the next string of results? 

Obviously Norwich is doing things wrong at the moment, but equally it was only 10 games ago that they were doing it right. Is it that unreasonable to work on the premise that they can turn it around without calling in the HR consultants?

Well said POJ!

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

I think this is definitely correct for managers with a proven track record - Rodgers and Lambert fit that profile well. Adams however is a novice. As was Gunn and Grant. There is nothing to reassure fans in this situation that the individual in question has the credentials.

Proven managers should be given time. Punts should be continually evaluated

 

[Lake District Canary]

Good points POJ. This was my argument with Hughton - his mission was a three year mission, which failed only in the latter stages of his tenure.   There had been two points in November and in January when the board could have sacked him - but didn't because of a longer term plan and the hope that if he did manage to turn it round and get us scoring, things would quickly become ok between him and the fans.    It was a gamble that they failed to follow through imo, because of  the crowd turning.   But  why did they not see it through?  The very thing that POJ is suggesting is what they wanted - yet they bowed to the pressure.  They gave in when the going got really tough, instead of doing what Newcastle did and stick with a manager despite unacceptable results and enormous pressure from the geordie crowd. 

I'm not saying Hughton would have turned it round, because I think things had gone too far, but just say if he had managed to get the points needed to stay up - it would have been difficult to move him on then.   As it happens, in this league, he has a good record of getting teams high up the table and promoted - so there is an argument to say he could have been kept on despite relegation, if a long term plan was in place.  It wouldn't have been  popular with fans - but did that bother  the Newcastle owner?   No - and look how well they are doing now. 

Lets face it.  Are we any better off results wise than if we had kept Hughton?   I'm not talking about would you have wanted him, I'm talking about hard and fast results and experience at this level.   If Adams is now supposed to be the long term hope for the future, it makes me very concerned about the club's future and direction.  I don't think he's got it. 

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

There is little evidence things are any better than if we'd have stuck with Hughton. The situation was lost by the time they sacked Hughton as they left it too late. The change was purely to try and get a bounce effect which we wouldnt ordinarily have had if Hughton had stayed. It didnt work, but was very unlikely to. One last roll of the dice after the horse has bolted. Worth doing as nothing to lose, but unlikely to work.

Hughton wasnt proven at Premier League level, and had only two seasons I believe as a full manager. There was little to support a 'keep the faith' approach - whereas Liverpool however should absolutely stick by Rodgers having come so close to doing what no Liverpool manager has done for 20 years.

For the record I think we'd be about here or possibly better had we kept Hughton, doubt we'd be any worse. No evidence to back Adams either unfortunately.

We've gone down the road of appointing novice's before, and ultimately its backfired more often than its succeeded. Grant, Gunn, Megson (first time I think), Deehan. Worthy and Walker were novices too I think so its not all bad - but I think overall its fallen flat on its face more often than its succeeded. You could argue Walker inherited and continued a lot of good groundwork before him. Adams is rather charged with transforming the fortunes

 

[eatonparkboy]

I'm starting to see a parallel between clubs and many of their fans and wives with an abusive husband. All is fine while the wife is doing the cooking, laying it on a plate and so forth, (winning games), but something happens not to the husband's liking and the wife gets beaten to a pulp. The wife is placating (the club says the fans have a right to be angry) and the cycle continues. In the meantime the wife's self-confidence diminishes and she shrinks into herself. 

For me, what's more depressing than the recent results, is that the histrionics are already starting: "We need a new manager", Ruddy getting slagged off for a rare spell of poor form in spite of him having stuck with us when he could have been off to Chelsea. 

And what about the new manager thing? Do people really believe changing managers every ten minutes gives all the answers? Is it reasonable that Brendan Rodgers, a Swansea hero, the man who took Liverpool back to the Champions League, is now the favourite to be sacked in the Premier League. Is it right that Paul Lambert AKA the Messiah among many Norwich fans, is 'useless' according to AVFC fans having been winless since August after getting off to a flying start (I can think of a certain manager closer to home who can probably sympathise with that)? 

So many fans look at other clubs with bemusement at their managerial sackings, yet can't seem to apply the rationale to their own clubs. Am I the only person out there who thinks that maybe it's about time people started looking a little further than the last recent string of results and casting absolute judgements on the managers as a result, only to swing round completely upon the next string of results? 

Obviously Norwich is doing things wrong at the moment, but equally it was only 10 games ago that they were doing it right. Is it that unreasonable to work on the premise that they can turn it around without calling in the HR consultants?

I find many of the things you say rational and acceptable. It would be good for managers to be given time to put ideas into place and try new things. I'm all for it.

However, I haven't seen anything from NA to suggest he is doing anything different from Hughton. To be honest, watching us Saturday was a throwback to last season. Trouble is, we are in a lower division. Nine of that team on Saturday were considered good enough by the previous incumbent to be good enough to help the club progress from its 10th place in the Prem. That didn't happen and it isn't a surprise really. This squad is not performing anything like a team that was brought together to succeed.

NA said that he was bringing fresh ideas but also returning to playing the Norwich way. And the opening game of this season left us shocked. There didn't appear to be any change whatsoever. But a bit of luck in the following match saw us score plenty and get three points and we were convinced after the following match, that what we had seen the opening game was nothing more than an aberration. And I cannot believe even the staunchest of those who thought NA's appointment was wrong weren't pleased with the apparent progress.

And now we find ourselves having a poll to see whether we think the manager should be sacked. And what has caused that and instances where I voted YES despite a plea earlier that it was ridiculous to keep changing manager.

The situation that we are still within reach of an automatic place as well as the play offs is no longer an argument as far as I'm concerned. So is two thirds of the division. The Forest game and its aftermath were the crux for me. The ugly defeat at Middlesborough could be thought as a bad day at the office. But what followed was inexcusable.

To lose to Forest in the manner we did and the second half performance itself led me to question the difference, if any, between the football being served up currently and that of last season which at least had the excuse of playing in the Prem. And there was no difference. And the tactics hadn't altered one bit.

But at least give the bloke a chance with the two home games to come against faltering opposition. He will have learnt from the last two horror shows and a new Norwich will play against Brighton. But it didn't and the tactics were the same.

OK then, one last chance against Reading. He has made a couple of changes. One completely unbelievable in putting Martin back to CB but one good in dropping an out of form Grabban and giving Hooper a chance. Hang on, look at the subs. Two CB's!! and only two attacking players in a game that must be won. Won well of course but the minimum is a win.

We were dire for much of that game. Reading sussed us out and sat back and took a chance. And good luck to them, it paid off. But to be honest, they didn't look in trouble. I don't recall a backs to the wall Rorkes Drift performance from them. Murphy wasn't deemed good enough to start when the game was even at 0-0 but is thrown on when we are losing. Howson was having a stinker with his corners and free kicks but our best set play taker, O'Neill comes on with little time left.

He hasn't changed a thing. And players who came away from last season with a bit of success are now being hounded by the crowd and resorting to silly social media.

No, the managerial merry go round is not ideal or good. (And I must admit that I find it strange that the managers association is full of blokes who are full of sorrow when a manager is sacked, but can't wait to take the job when offered. Strong union that one.) And I am all for new managers being given time to impose their ideas. But not when all they are doing is talking it up but in fact jut serving up the same old thing.

 

[Salopian]

POJ has views which I broadly accept.

Adams has made some mistakes - I am not convinced by Grabban and his lack of technique, and Hooiveld is too slow to play alongside the rather slow Turner. Signing new players at our level, a couple of million here and the same there, is always a risk. Will they repeat (eventually) what they seem to have done in the past? I also believe that he too has undroppable favourites, and that some of our earlier performances had elements of fortune about them, fortune that has recently turned away.

While I agree that we cannot let things drag on too long as they are, I think that sacking him now would not necessarily bring improvement, bearing in mind the lack of quality in some of our players. What top class manager could we attract who is currently unemployed (why is he?), and how long would he need to effect a great improvement?

We also have to accept that we are a small club with resources that will not allow us to sign top class players in sufficient number to give us the prospect of "permanent" membership of the Premiership.The only way is the Southampton way, to consolidate with home-grown talent and one or two promising signings, and thus to build a team with good prospects of Premiership survival.

Whether the man to do this is Adams, I don't know, but if we did somehow gain promotion this season I fear that it would be like last time - meteoric but followed by disappointment. I prefer to take a lightly more long-term view. Short term panic measures made from short term expectations have no guarantee of success.

 

[Yellow Fever]

We've gone down the road of appointing novice's before, and ultimately its backfired more often than its succeeded. Grant, Gunn, Megson (first time I think), Deehan. Worthy and Walker were novices too I think so its not all bad - but I think overall its fallen flat on its face more often than its succeeded. You could argue Walker inherited and continued a lot of good groundwork before him. Adams is rather charged with transforming the fortunes

You could also include Ken Brown and Dave Stringer on the success side for 'novices', but they were given more time to develop the squad and neither ended up being sacked. Stringer achieved a 4th place finish in the top division.

 

[ZLF]

I am happy to stick with a manager if there are signs that they have identified that there are issues,   what those issues are and has a plan to put things right.     There can also be excuses where the manager does not have the right squad or the time to pull his own side together.  He has had plenty of funding so the latter excuse has gone.

My main concern is that I dont think Adams does.    The numerous circular changes in both defensive partnership and midfield formations and a persistance with 442 suggest he does not yet know his strongest team.    The inactivity in resolving the defensive problem or simply allowing a partnership to develop (3 different back 4s in the last 3 games) with a regular panic reverting to norm by recalling whittaker shows a lack of faith in the squad.    The other glaring gap (left midfield) could have been resolved with a loan (with a view to purchase) yet only once the window closes do we get a comment that an incoming player is an option.

Each passing weeks team selection simply makes me despair at the moment,   I keep hoping for the right changes only to have them dashed..   Unless we change our tactics,  defensive and attacking and work to our best formation I see no change in results.   I want Neyul to get us promoted - at the moment that is a very long way off;   our results over 10 games have us joint bottom of the relegation league - that should never have been a spectre or sentence that should have been uttered this season.   

 

[morty]

Very well put ZLF.

 

[GazzaTCC]

You could also include Ken Brown and Dave Stringer on the success side for 'novices', but they were given more time to develop the squad and neither ended up being sacked. Stringer achieved a 4th place finish in the top division.

The likes of Ken Brown, Dave Stringer and Mike Walker may have been considered "novices" from the perspective of it being their first managerial appointment, however, they had considerable experience in terms of being in, or around, first team players, either as the assistant manager or coach. Yes, Mike Walker was reserve team manager but, in those days, he was still dealing with first team players.
In comparison, Adams was an academy coach. That's not to say that coach's in that position can't make the step up, but it's a huge ask.

Adams would have been better served either as the first team coach or assistant manager this term, alongside a more experienced manager.

Maybe that's said with the benefit of hindsight, but he's clearly struggling at the moment and he's not being helped by players making poor decisions and errors out on the pitch.

 

[Watling the Gnome]

OP - as someone who has a family member who suffered from an abusive husband, I have to say I think your choice of analogy is appalling.

There is very little in common between football clubs and fans, and domestic violence.

 

[morty]

OP - as someone who has a family member who suffered from an abusive husband, I have to say I think your choice of analogy is appalling.

There is very little in common between football clubs and fans, and domestic violence.

I agree, and I have removed the comment.

 

[Monty13]

I agree with the original post broadly.

Football has become about instant gratification, and that increasingly seems to mean winning and table position over everything else. Some people were calling for Adams to be replaced after the opening day. 

I'm not happy with where we are at the minute, but I was very happy when we were sitting pretty a few months ago. I was expecting this to be a stop start season and wasn't expecting us to be flying. We have a decent squad, but there were always a few question marks over morale and desire after last season.

I think the appointment of Mike Phelan could be a game changer, but it is going to take a while to see the real benefit.

I feel sorry for Adams. Not a popular appointment, learning as he goes and this bad patch seems to have lost him most supporters backing. He has also been an unlucky manager. It often seems to me that luck has become the defining factor in a managers ability, because it is the factor that most affects short term results. What players are available, what mistakes players make, who's out of form etc. - Yes a good manager mitigates against bad luck but sometimes you just need that rub.

 

[morty]

I think though Monty, its not about football fans having become spoiled brats and wanting more than they deserve, its about how the game has changed, and about survival.

Championship football, for a club of our financial means, spells a slow, lingering "death". You just have to look at how it all panned out last time we were relegated from the Premiership, as to the very likely scenario.

Years ago, as long as you got enough fans through the turnstiles, then that was enough to survive, and succeed. Generally the more succesful teams were the ones who attracted the biggest crowds. Sky tv changed all that, foreign gezillionaires changed it too.

And we all know full well that this season is our very best chance of securing further financial stability for our club, and it isnt hystrionics getting frustrated about seeing it slip away, knowing it will be ten times harder next season.

 

[Monty13]

I'm not sure that the two are unrelated. I'm not sure that fans impatience isn't driving how the game is changing and vice versa. The two seem very related to me, but that is just my opinion. How often are changes forced by the fans, nearly always, as fans get angrier quicker than owners. Would West Ham have been right to sack Allardyce last season?

Championship football may mean a slow lingering death, it may not. Every year three teams get promoted and just as many of those teams are recent leavers as long term absentees. It all depends on many factors.

Also are Southampton fans worried about the early part of the last ten years now? We have risen and fallen, we will rise and fall again. A club with our financial means will always behave that way.

I know it's a flippant comment but I don't think promotion will be ten times harder next year, that ignores the things making it hard this year. Also how many clubs get relegated and immediately nosedive? Just steadying the ship is often hard enough for relegated clubs. Burnley are back, Derby look a good bet for going back this season, it may take time and yes we would all rather get promoted now but the long term isn't necessarily bleak if we don't.

It has to be more about just paddling to stay afloat. If you're not looking to grow as a football club the best we can hope for is that. Change is always painful and very rarely gives instant results. We could have got an established name, but there is no more guarantee of success and you can guarantee if our next prem season didn't go well, it would be time for a change in fans eyes.

I'm not saying Adams is the long term answer, but expecting him to be acting as an accomplished manager after less than a year in the job is unrealistic imo. It was always going to be a bumpy ride, I still don't know, and I don't believe anybody does, whether Adams is going to grow into a good manager, but the board must have seen some potential and a few months is not enough time for him to try and fulfil it.

I may be in the minority but performing poorly in the premiership and performing poorly in the championship makes very little difference to me. It's equally frustrating and boring to watch. It just costs me more in the premiership and I get better highlights. I want Norwich to work out how to play well, like Swansea have been doing, like Southampton are excelling at now. That success will never last, but a club with an ethos and an established idea of how to do things will make these constant managerial changes at least likelier to improve things and less painful.

 

[morty]

I would put us financially below some of those teams that you mention there though. We have virtually zero outside investment, I may be wrong, but I think it has been a long, long time since anyone (other than Sky money etc) actually invested any money in Norwich City.

So that is what I base my opinion on, we will never be as cash rich while we are in the Championship, as we are this season.

But this is the point about Adams (all academic, as the board made their decision) we didn't need a manager who is going to grow into the job, we needed someone firing and ready to go, and able to maximise our best chance of promotion.

If the Championship had more of a share of the money, I would be more than happy to stay in it.

 

[morty]

And the latest casualty is......Nigel Adkins of Reading.

 

[Yellow Fever]

I've found this thread very interesting in the context of two consecutive wins with clean sheets and 6 goals scored. It's a bit like the boos at half-time before the second half blitz. There is a huge 'instant gratification' effect going on, including the sacking of Adkins.