This is as bad as Houghton's time..........so, tell me why it's not?

G

GJP

Well-Known Member
No, I'm not. I'm just looking at the things that people don't really want to look at.

Looking at our recent history in the Prem I look at all the things Lambert did well and all the things Hughton did well (two very different managers) and I'm trying to think where Alex Neil has come up to their standards. Struggling to see where he has. 

We look worse defensively than we did under both of them. Maybe there's a slight argument to say we are a better attacking side than we were under Hughton but I guess the flip of that is that even Hooper got 8 goals under Hughton. And Holt notched a few the season before. Where are Jerome or Mbokani at at the moment? 

I think it's a shame because up until the Newcastle game I think we had something about us. I mean we were never going to be threatening the Champions League places but we looked like we'd give a decent account of ourselves. But Newcastle happened and he hit the panic button. He's never really got things back on track since. 

But I get that people desperately want him to be this brilliant, young, up-and-coming manager that we can be proud of.
 
hogesar

hogesar

Well-Known Member
Well GJP it may be because of last season for some but the reasons above were my own and seemingly matches others too.
 
I

It's Character Forming

New Member
Up to Hughton's standards? Not a phrase you see very often.
 
G

GJP

Well-Known Member
Well I don't think many of us would be disappointed if we get a 0-0 against Man City at the weekend, as Hughton did at a similar stage of the season 2 years ago ;-)
 
ZLF

ZLF

Well-Known Member
Results and current performance, if anything, is worse than under Hughton;  What makes it worse for me is that we have shown that we do have some creative spark in midfield under Neil,  although we had the same inept defence under both and as equally inept strikers now as we had under hughton.  The persistent changing of formation for example is fine when things are going well,  but can lead to bewilderment or confusion when confidence is low.

However, as you can probably tell from earlier rants I am more disappointed with the players than the manager.   Under Hughton we did at least have consistency while currently we are appearing to perform well in defeat to good sides and then not turn up for the games where we can get the points needed to survive - the contrast with Swansea to any of the previous three games in terms of ability or energy was like watching a different club.  That energy or drive is not solely down to the manager;  players sub-consciously (?) appear to be hiding when the we need them most;   It not the first time this season,  or even over the last couple of seasons.  

The manager is rightly getting questions - but the players need to too
 
I

It's Character Forming

New Member
Well I don't think many of us would be disappointed if we get a 0-0 against Man City at the weekend, as Hughton did at a similar stage of the season 2 years ago ;-)
which was pretty much the summit of his ambition by that point.  I think the truly depressing thing under Hughton towards the end was that for most games he just set-up to defend a point, and if we went behind, nothing really changed.  And most of the time, it didn't work.

It is frustrating that under AN things have really turned bad since Christmas.  But in Hughton's final season, things were basically bad from day 1.
 
G

GJP

Well-Known Member
There is a bit of that from Alex Neil. For example, bringing on Dorrans rather than Bamford against West Ham signified he was protecting the point. 

And there are question marks over his Plan B when Plan A has failed.

As I've said, I wasn't a fan of Hughton's "style" but at least he had one.
 
I

It's Character Forming

New Member
It is true that AN is struggling to find the right approach to use, both from game to game, and within a game when he needs to think about changing it, e.g. he was criticised against West Ham for not responding to their subs. 

But with Hughton, he had Plan A and that was that.  We could be 2-0 down (e.g. away at Spurs) and he'd be willing to keep on with the same approach.

It was one of the great things about Lambert, that he could flex the team and the formation, between games and during a game.  If we were behind, he'd bring 2 subs on at 60 minutes - you could set your watch by it.  And we used to get a lot of late goals under him as a result.  But he was an exceptional manager during his spell with us.  If his time was the standard for comparison there wouldn't be many City managers over the last 20 years who would show up well.
 
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ZLF

ZLF

Well-Known Member
Lamberts thrilling use of subs was a good as any manager that I can recall

For the first time at swansea Neil acted quickly with an aggressive risky double sub with 30 mins still to play, yet was still criticised for late subs
 
Din

Din

Well-Known Member
Neil was always going to make a few mistakes at this level because of how inexperienced he is, we knew that when he was appointed, however he was the man we needed to get us out of the Championship. Whilst he has had his shortcomings this season, the main reason we are currently in the bottom 3, and look like we won't get out, is that simply we don't have good enough players. When I look at our squad I would say that Tettey, Hoolahan, Redmond, Naismith, Brady, Howson, Ruddy, Klose and possibly Bassong are all good enough to play at this level, all the rest, quite honestly, are not. Even out of those who are good enough, Redmond, Naismith, Bassong and Hoolahan are inconsistant, Ruddy has only recently found his form again after a shocking first half of the season, Klose only came in in January and Tettey is injured for the rest of season. 

There are a ridiculous amount of games this season where we have actually played well, or at least not badly, and tactically we have been sound, but haven't got anything because of stupid individual errors from the players:

Palace (H) - 3-1 Loss. Midfield fail to track Zaha for first goal, nobody marks Delaney properly from a corner for the 2nd, Martin leaves Cabaye unmarked for the 3rd.
Stoke (H) - 1-1 Draw. Tettey doesn't mark Diouf from a free-kick, ends up scoring.
Southampton (A) - 3-0 Loss. Whittaker gets stupidly sent off after half an hour at 0-0. Up against it for the rest of the game with 10 men.
West Ham (A) - 2-2 Draw. We're 2-1 up going into the 90th minute, they get a free-kick, Ruddy messes up his punch away and Kouyate scores from it.
Man.City (A) - 2-1 Loss. Bennett doesn't track Otamendi from a corner, who scores. Ruddy fails to catch a cross, ends up leading to a penalty, which they score.
Chelsea (A) - 1-0 Loss. Wisdom and Martin switch off from a quick free-quick over the top, Costa goes through on goal and scores.
Arsenal (H) - 1-1 Draw. Terrible kick from Ruddy gives the ball away, he then stupidly comes charging out of his goal to close down Ozil who chips it over him.
Watford (A) - 2-0 Loss. Tettey gives the ball away and then brings down Ighalo for Waford penalty, which they score. Bassong gets turned too easily for their 2nd.
Everton (H) - 1-1 Draw. Poor clearance from Olsson gives the ball straight to Deulofeu, who crosses to unmarked Lukaku who scores.
Stoke (A) - 3-1 Loss. 0-0 after half an hour when Gary O'Neil makes a needless, stupid challenge and gets himself a red card. 
Liverpool (H) - 5-4 Loss. 3-1 up after 55 minutes, end up losing the game despite not changing the tactics. Don't think I need to go into any more detail.
West Ham (H) 2-2 Draw. Same as Liverpool game. 2-0 up with 15 to go, end up drawing. Again, don't think any more detail is needed.
Leicester (A) 1-0 Loss. Outplay Leicester the whole 2nd half. Ulloa is left unmarked in the box with 2 minutes left and he scores.
Chelsea (H) 2-1 Loss. Fail to close down Kenedy who scores from distance after just 1 minute. Play well for the rest of the game but don't take our chances.

We have taken a total of 5 points from those 14 games, and I don't think you can blame the tactics that Neil chose for those games one bit. He has made the odd error in there, for example neither Martin or Rudd should've been selected against Liverpool, Ruddy should've been dropped earlier, but apart from that I would go as far as to say he is blame free in all of those games. We played well in the vast majority of those games, and competed in all of them. I'm not saying that we would've won all those games, but if we didn't make the stupid errors that we did then we would have a hell of a lot more points the board, and certainly wouldn't be in the bottom 3. However, the reason we have only taken 5 points from those 14, is because most of the players are not Premier League quality, hence why we are currently in the position we were in.

I have been pro-Neil all season, and as long as we actually put up a fight in the final 9 games, compete in them, and don't end up finishing below Villa, I will continue to be pro-Neil even if we go down. The fundamental differences between this season and Hughton's final season are that we are actually competitive in most games, particularly at home. We've only conceded more than 3 goals in a game twice this season, and one of those was the 5-4 against Liverpool. In Hughton's final season, we conceded more than 3 goals in 6 of our games. Plus, Neil has actually tried different personnel/formations to find the right formula, whereas Hughton used the same players in the same system every single week even when it was clear it wasn't working. Also, our games this season, even when we lose, are often exciting, full of goals and we try and play good football. I get why fans are desperate for us to stay up, at all costs, but personally I would much rather my team were a 'Yoyo club' that play exciting, attacking football, with games that are full of goals and action, than a team like West Brom or Sunderland, who play terrible football, have dire games, but limp towards safety each season. Obviously I want us to stay up, but at any cost? I don't think so. 

I'm not trying to make out that Neil is totally blame free, of course he's not. Any manager has to take a certain amount of responsibility when their team are relegated. However is his inexperience the main reason why we will go down (assuming we do), absolutely not. That lies with the quality (or rather lack of it) of the majority of our squad. With the exception of Brady and Tettey, I don't think a single player can really say they've performed consistantly well this season.
 
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W

Wonderbar

New Member
One huge difference between the 2nd Houghton season and the 2nd AN season is team spirit. Houghton seemed to have sucked the life out of the team whereas reports from Colney suggest   that the players are full of optimism and are playing hard for their manager.
 
hogesar

hogesar

Well-Known Member
Not at all mate, we were all feeling pretty low when you started it!
True, although maybe it's the perfect example of jumping the gun a tad too early.

I never once called for AN to be sacked and i'm glad the board didn't flinch either - certainly I don't think Hughton would have inspired our last couple of results.
 
Dubai Mark

Dubai Mark

Active Member
I certainly have no problem at all taking any criticism on this thread, but like many I am now feeling a little more confident of our chances of survival. This new found confidence, and I am not going to carried away, is obviously as a result of recent performances, which were really topped by the amazing performance Saturday, we certainly do have an execllent team spirit as earlier highlighted by Wonderbar. So, right now, it IS looking different to CH's time, and there really is a possibility we could stay up.......thing is, just like I am sure you all are, I am expecting a few twists and turns before the end of this crazy season........I'm also expecting Leicester to lose a couple of matches too!  
 
hogesar

hogesar

Well-Known Member
I certainly have no problem at all taking any criticism on this thread, but like many I am now feeling a little more confident of our chances of survival. This new found confidence, and I am not going to carried away, is obviously as a result of recent performances, which were really topped by the amazing performance Saturday, we certainly do have an execllent team spirit as earlier highlighted by Wonderbar. So, right now, it IS looking different to CH's time, and there really is a possibility we could stay up.......thing is, just like I am sure you all are, I am expecting a few twists and turns before the end of this crazy season........I'm also expecting Leicester to lose a couple of matches too!  
You shouldn't take criticism per say, it's standard of any football fan really to become negative when the team's struggling. I do stick by my claim that this thread was jumping the gun a bit - that's is on the basis that (in my opinion) we are on paper a bottom 5 side without a decent goalscorer and had a central defence which struggled for the first half of the season.
 
W

Wonderbar

New Member
  Yes, but AN's team has been getting better for several weeks prior to the unbeaten streak. Houghton's team seemed to have shut down.  

  A lot of criticism poured in for AN because the lack of wins between early January and the ManC game, but very few of those results came from bad strategy. The inability to score in a first half we dominated at Villa was not the manager's fault. Had we finished any of our very good chances before they scored,  it's highly likely they'd have closed up shop as they tend to do once conceding (see last Saturday). 

  There had been too many missed opportunities that cost us wins and draws but that reasonably couldn't be blamed on AN. Througb all that, we never gave up, or at least the players didn't.  
 
hogesar

hogesar

Well-Known Member
Well AN was allowed time to survive his bad run (which was as bad as it gets). Hughton wasn't.
Yep. Because the fans didn't turn. Because this time, fans could see what he was trying to achieve and seeing quite a few performances deserving of more. Whereas Hughton, I felt the players made it clear on the pitch that Hughton's style of play was stifling them. Which has since been confirmed by a few players.
 

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