Where did Adams go wrong?

[The Great Mass Debater]

Gunn was fortunate in a sense that his tenure was followed by great times for the club. If we'd languished in League 1 for years no doubt many would have continually blamed Gunn for it all.

You could also argue however that Lambert demonstrated how well things could have gone and that this would lead to people being yet harsher on Gunn.

Gunny will always be a legend in my eyes. I dont think you can blame people for wanting to take such a job. I think most Norwich fans would be keen to have a go, no matter how unqualified.

The fault lies in the people who put both Gunn and Adams in that position in the first place. But are they too simply victims of romance? Can we blame them for that. Depends if you believe the choices were made because of sentiment, or because of finance

 

[eatonparkboy]

Gunn was fortunate in a sense that his tenure was followed by great times for the club. If we'd languished in League 1 for years no doubt many would have continually blamed Gunn for it all.

You could also argue however that Lambert demonstrated how well things could have gone and that this would lead to people being yet harsher on Gunn.

Gunny will always be a legend in my eyes. I dont think you can blame people for wanting to take such a job. I think most Norwich fans would be keen to have a go, no matter how unqualified.

The fault lies in the people who put both Gunn and Adams in that position in the first place. But are they too simply victims of romance? Can we blame them for that. Depends if you believe the choices were made because of sentiment, or because of finance

I will never subscribe to the belief that it is all about money. Why on earth would they risk losing £60+M a season for the sake of paying a million or two less for a manager. If that were the case then that would reinforce even more why they have gone for Alex Neil. You have to have value for money. And can you imagine us with Harry Redknapp or Steve Bruce at the helm? Back to the insolvent days in no short order.

 

[Yellow Fever]

Dont think it will take long for people to start saying he is 'out of his depth' if we go through a bad run...

I don't understand why people avoid the experi[SIZE=13.63636302948px]e[/SIZE]nce factor with Alex Neil. He took over as player-manager for Hamilton, a team he had played for over 8 years, and guided them to the play-offs (exactly the same thing Gary Holt did with Falkirk in his first year of management). Neil had the good fortune to win the play-offs and then managed for 6 months in the SCP. Would he be here now if Hamilton had lost to Falkirk in that play-off? I very much doubt it. 

I hope Neil does very well here and achieves promotion as we all want, but as GMD says, he does seem to be very vulnerable to the tag of  'out of his depth' if we go through a bad run. Will the fickle fans in our midst stand for that? I very much doubt it.

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

I don't understand why people avoid the experi[SIZE=13.63636302948px]e[/SIZE]nce factor with Alex Neil. He took over as player-manager for Hamilton, a team he had played for over 8 years, and guided them to the play-offs (exactly the same thing Gary Holt did with Falkirk in his first year of management). Neil had the good fortune to win the play-offs and then managed for 6 months in the SCP. Would he be here now if Hamilton had lost to Falkirk in that play-off? I very much doubt it. 

I hope Neil does very well here and achieves promotion as we all want, but as GMD says, he does seem to be very vulnerable to the tag of  'out of his depth' if we go through a bad run. Will the fickle fans in our midst stand for that? I very much doubt it.

If they dont stand by club legends during these kind of runs, nothing to suggest they will keep the faith with someone most had never heard of before last week

 

[It's Character Forming]

Is it just me this topic reminds of George Best after he'd stopped playing, the story was he'd been to a casino and won 50k, was back in his room with his girlfriend who was the current Miss World, piles of cash on the bed, ordered room service and the bellboy said to him "so Mr Best, where did it all go wrong?"

 

[Yellow Fever]

If they dont stand by club legends during these kind of runs, nothing to suggest they will keep the faith with someone most had never heard of before last week

I think yesterday's reaction from some fans proved your point completely, GMD. 

 

[BroadstairsR]

He got off to a very bad start too. A fall-out with a senior player and the captain in his first meeting with the players meant that there was conflict from the start.

I am not pareticularly defending Bassong but he's not the brightest (fake guns etc) and he was stupid to say what he did, but perhaps Adams could have reacted better. He had enough ammunition at his disposal and by pointing out his distinguished playing career with the Club and his Youth team achievements he could have easily made Bassong look stupid.

Instead we had a costly stand-off which was detrimental to the Club, the player and, ultimately, the manager himself. There may have been repercussions with other players as well over the mis-handling.

Of course this was not the main reason why he failed, but it wouldn't have helped and I suppose it didn't help that the replacements, to a man, were lesser players that SB

 

[Din]

I think where Adams went wrong is simply that he didn't know how to change it when things started going wrong. We started brilliantly, Grabban scoring goals, defensively we were solid, and we had a consistent starting team. However when Jerome hit form he didn't know how to successfully accommodate him and Grabban, which ultimately lead to our downfall. Rather than realise he would have to sacrifice Grabban so that Jerome could play, he changed the system from something that had worked so successfully in the early part of the season, to a formation that did not work. It meant obviously that Hoolahan was stuck out onto the left wing where he was totally ineffective and constantly drifting inside meaning a complete lack of balance in our midfield. The wise thing to do would've been to drop Grabban (a little harsh considering he started the season so well), and swap him with Jerome and keep exactly the same system. Obviously this is easy to say in hindsight, but ultimately these decisions are the ones that managers are paid to make, and Adams got that one wrong. There's no way of knowing obviously whether if we had done that whether we would still be top of the league, but that to me is where Adams initially went wrong. When we started losing games confidence started to drop, and Hoolahan also got injured which lead to the run of poor results that lead to Adams sacking (or agreeing to resign as the club put it).

There is no doubt at all that Neil Adams meant well, and wanted this club to succeed as much as every supporter does. But he should never have been given the job because of the reasons that every fan argued when he was appointed. A lack of experience. A manager with more experience would have a better idea of how to change things when it's going wrong, which Adams couldn't do.

 

[ZLF]

I think he highlights the difference between being a good, knowledgeable football coach  and being a good manager who can get motivate players to deliver the range of footballing ideas you need to win across a season. 

 

[Yellow Fever]

I think he highlights the difference between being a good, knowledgeable football coach  and being a good manager who can get motivate players to deliver the range of footballing ideas you need to win across a season. 

We have yet to see if that is what Neil will bring here now. We don't know, but hopefully he will.

 

[Canaryboy]

I will never subscribe to the belief that it is all about money. Why on earth would they risk losing £60+M a season for the sake of paying a million or two less for a manager. If that were the case then that would reinforce even more why they have gone for Alex Neil. You have to have value for money. And can you imagine us with Harry Redknapp or Steve Bruce at the helm? Back to the insolvent days in no short order.

Well actually, McNally could personally profit from the decision to be very fiscally conservative when appointing a manager. 

His huge bonus was related to 'financial performance', presumably a percentage of our £6m profit. So can we assume that £2m less profit last financial year would have seen him take 33% less in bonuses?

Yes, I'm aware that McNally would be better off in the long run if we'd remained in the Premier League, but is this relationship the wrong one to have? It is very fair to ask whether we are discounting strong candidates based upon how much we believed they may have cost, and refraining from sacking managers (with compensation owed), directly as a result of McNally's financial targets? 

I've always found it odd that we didn't even talk with Neil Lennon, and wonder whether this was due to the perception that he'd be a costly choice, or whether the board had simply already decided to appoint Neil Adams and our search for a manager was a complete charade. 

I've even begun to wonder whether they stuck with Hughton last January simply because they didn't want to pay off 18 months of his contract. Again, does McNally have an unhealthy interest in seeing that he is well remunerated first and foremost? Paying off Hughton in January would have had a direct impact on McNally's pay cheque. 

Perhaps that's where it has all gone wrong. Presumably this bonus wasn't in place when he took the brave decision to sack Gunn after one game and then steal another clubs manager, having to go to a tribunal at risk of huge financial penalty, perhaps because we were loss making at the time so there were no profits for McNally to share in? 

This relationship has been churning around in my head for a few days now, I'd be interested in hearing whether anybody else has had similar thoughts. Perhaps McNally has a vested interest which either consciously or sub-consciously lead to decisions which aren't made with a 100% focus on the interests of the club. 

I'll put my helmet on. 

 

[ZLF]

We have yet to see if that is what Neil will bring here now. We don't know, but hopefully he will.

Whether AN is any better is another question altogether; he may be a better manager than coach or both a better coach and manager,  or inferior in both aspects than NA.    It is simply far too soon to know. 

the question was about NA and I shared my view without comparison to AN.

 

[Yellow Fever]

I can see that, ZLF, but it's inevitable that Neil's record will be compared with Adams' and probably Lambert's in the Championship as well. It's one thing for a 33 year-old player-manager to succeed with the team he has played in for 8 years and quite another to manage a bigger team, in a totally different football league just as successfully. If Neil can exceed Adams' win ratio of 42% for the rest of the season and get us into the play-offs, then he will have succeeded. If he doesn't, however, he may well not be here when the pre-season starts. None us knew how the season would go for Adams before the first game, just as none of us knows how it will go for the new manager from here. 

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

How long can Alex Neil last? The 12 motnh rolling contract is interesting. If Neil isnt an instant success in some shape or form, is he likely to be cast aside in the summer as well? Is the 12 month rolling contract simply sensible, reflective of us having a punt, or an incentive to keep him on his toes?

If you truly believe Neil is your man, surely you give him a big contract?

 

[Boyerboy]

I think Din has hit the main target.

It is beyond ironic but Adams' best move was also the seed of his undoing.

We started the season with some good football and some good results. A large part of that was the 4-2-3-1 formation which suited our players and gave lots of options. We had a secure defence and incisive attacking.

Then, Adams signed Jerome. Rather than keep the winning formation and choose between Jerome and Grabban, Adams tried to fit them both in and after playing Grabban unsuccessfully in the left sided position, he changed formations and tactics several times to accommodate them both. He tried 4-4-2 to accommodate both strikers but that meant we could only play two central midfield whereas previously we had Johnson and Tettey with another attacking midfielder in front of them. I remember one 4-4-2 game where we had Johnson and Tettey in central midfield and no attacking thrust at all.

Of course, a manager should be flexible and have different strategies but we slipped to a point where the best team and best formation became confused and lost. The team became unsettled and lost its way.

It is rather like England when successive managers could not choose between Gerrard and Lampard and ended up trying to play them both and completely unbalancing the team.

I suspect that the players lost faith with Adams'ability to set up teams that could cope with all requirements of a game and rather lost heart but that is my supposition only.

En passant, I assume CanaryBoy is having a tease with his McNally's salary theory. If so, it made me smile. If by some remote chance you were serious then you have a great future as a conspiracy theorist. As if a CEO would manipulate managers' employment just to get a bonus! Excellent!!

 

[Boyerboy]

Sticking with McNally though, I think the rolling contract was the best idea. Lambert was on a rolling contract after all.

There is an element of risk with Neil and it would be irresponsible to give a long contract. Also, the cost of sacking Neil remains constant and predictable.

Like Lambert, it does mean that it is cheaper for another club to poach him but he will only be a target if he does well so it is a win win situation surely?

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

Going back to what Din and Boyerboy said about the Jerome Grabban and the midfield thing, I think this stems from a greater problem that Norwhich have had in midfield for a number of years, something I have been complaining about since we went up to the Premier League.

Norwich have had a lot of midfielders with singular strengths, which meant we always had a dilemma as to what formation to play and which element of our game to leave out. It was almost like you needed to play every central midfielder to get every component of a midfielder needed on the pitch. Only BJ could compete for the ball, only Tettey had the movement and reading of the game to intercept, only Fox could play a long pass, only Hoolahan could spread the play and link the attack.

What we have always needed is more balanced central midfielders. CMs who can do more than one thing without having to give it to somebody else for the next stage (or repeatedly try the next stage themselves, be found wanting and then the move break down).

I know balanced all rounders cost the earth, but this is why (and I know I'll upset Paul here saying this) I thought the signing of Fer was a massive breakthrough. He was a player who could do everything himself. Even if a lot of the time he didnt.

If you have central midfielders that can tackle, pass, create and shoot, then your formation becomes less important. When you have players who can only do bits of it you end up having to write off part of your game. For instance you play only two midfielders and theyre Tettey and BJ, you lose all creativity. Remove a striker to accomodate Hoolahan to fill in for this you lose goal threat as Hoolahan doesnt provide this himself. This is why Quagliarella could have been a vital signing in previous seasons.

Last season we seemed to always need to be able to play one more midfielder, which of course you cant do. The solution - have better more all rounded midfielders. They dont have to be superstars like Yaya, just competent

 

[Yellow Fever]

Sticking with McNally though, I think the rolling contract was the best idea. Lambert was on a rolling contract after all.

There is an element of risk with Neil and it would be irresponsible to give a long contract. Also, the cost of sacking Neil remains constant and predictable.

Like Lambert, it does mean that it is cheaper for another club to poach him but he will only be a target if he does well so it is a win win situation surely?

Considering Adams was given a 3 year contract, though, it does seem to suggest that McNally and the Board see this appointment as having a high degree of risk. Given McAvoy's comments in the Pink'un, "in footballing terms I’m going to another world so I’m really looking forward to it, it’s something I have to try and fingers crossed it works out, but time will tell”, it seems that he and Neil see it as a risk as well, especially given the fact that they are leaving their families in Scotland.

 

[Yellow Fever]

 Sorry - wrong post!  :unsure:

 

[The Great Mass Debater]

I agree that this has been an ongoing problem and that Fer was the closest we got to solving it. Howson is the next closest, I'd say, but his defensive capabilities are his weakest point. Johnson has developed his goal-scoring this season, but at the expense of his defensive work at times and his passing is still weak. I had hoped that Odjidja-Ofoe would be a complete midfielder and he showed signs of that when he played, but injuries have intervened in a very cruel way.

Fer was our only complete midfielder. We havent seen enough of VOO to know whether he too is an all-rounder. Look at Steven Gerrard - the classic complete midfielder. What cant he do? Im not for a second out of my tree enough to suggest we could ever have a player of his calibre, but is there a League One or Championship version? Someone wihtout massive holes in his game who can do everything, just a bit more craply?

Our midfield is too limited and one-dimensional. Our boys are great at what they do, but because theyre crap at what they dont do its always been restrictive for the team